Record Levels and Maximum Output on Interface

[bryced87]

I was reading an article that I don't quite understand and was hoping someone here could better explain it or even tell me if it's correct.

I read that whatever maximum output your interface is that it determines your proper recording level. Does that really make any difference? I have the Mbox2 and it says that interface has a maximum output of +4dv. Whatever that means.

[Darryl Ramm]

That makes no sense.

Is there a link to the original document?

You have asked questions on recording levels before. There is no absolute rule but in general you really want to avoid clipping and just make life easy so with modern 24 bit ADCs you can just track with lots of headroom, like say peaks at -15dBFS. The proper level you record at with an interface should really have nothing to do with its analog output voltage. I think this has been gone over many times, a preamp input gain knob is not a volume control... that is what your faders and monitor volume control are for.

You should look up and understand the two common line level specs -10dBV (consumer) and +4dBu (professional), how they relate to each other and actual voltages. And what dBFS is in the digital domain. Your interface is its own magic level meter, when using it you directly see dBFS in Pro Tools, so jfocus on that. But like anytime you connect two line level things you might worry about if you are feeding an interface line level *input* signals at a level different (-10dbV/+4dBu) than it is expecting.

[bryced87]

Originally Posted by Darryl Ramm

That makes no sense.

Is there a link to the original document?

You have asked questions on recording levels before. There is no absolute rule but in general you really want to avoid clipping and just make life easy so with modern 24 bit ADCs you can just track with lots of headroom, like say peaks at -15dBFS. The proper level you record at with an interface should really have nothing to do with its analog output voltage. I think this has been gone over many tunes, an input gain knob is not a volume control...

You should look up and understand the two common line level specs -10dBV (consumer) and +4dBu (professional), how they relate to each other and actual voltages. And what dBFS is in the digital domain.

I know I've asked many times before. It's because I'm very confused. Here's an example.

I know a guy who runs the control room for big pop artists such as Lady Gaga etc. He told me he records Lady Gaga etc with the input level in Pro Tools being -12 at lowest and peaks at -6dbfs He says Pop Records are recorded wicked hot and have to be. I even met with him once while he was tracking Christina Aguilera and the vocals various Pop Synths were peaking at -6dbfs but he drops the master fader down if it clips and he never mixes with the master fader at 0.

So for you to tell me it should be -15dbfs just doesn't add up after seeing a professional guy do it with big time artists

[Darryl Ramm]

And that engineer may very well know exactly what he is doing to get what he wants. But nothing just has to be "recorded wicked hot" when you have 24 bits input and 64 bit floating point mixers. It was different in analog days and with lower bit depth ADCs. And you are likely setting yourself up to fail with fixating on numbers other people use vs. listening to what sounds best on your gear. But make it easy for yourself, and start with lots of headroom.

What preamp was he going into? With what compressor in front of it? Tracking through a whole analog console front end? With what $100k, $200k? More? of monitoring gear that is ultra transparent and helps shows up any problems while tracking? And a very skilled talentand magic ear listening to the tracking?

And across multiple posts here you repeatedly seem to want to track hot, on a Mbox 2 for **** sake, and driving a low end monitoring chain... Right? Or are you using a decent preamp in front of the Mbox 2? An analog compressor? What monitors and/or headphones and amps are you monitoring throughout? An Mbox 2 internal preamp *will* sound like utter **** when pushed hot (unlike likely the case you quoted). IIRC you have had Bob Olhsson and others here in threads in the past try to hammer that point.

Fixating on having to hit some hot input level really is mathematical nonsense with modern DAWs. I am not sure what problem you are trying to solve but if it is again around output levels or "sounding loud" you are likely wasting your time. Can you get somebody to listen to your mixes and try to give you advice on how to improve them, using the gear you have, or help you improve that gear if it is a real handicap.

[bryced87]

Originally Posted by Darryl Ramm

And that engineer may very well know exactly what he is doing to get what he wants. But nothing has to be "recorded wicked hot" when you have 24 bits input and 64 bit floating point mixers. It was different in analog days and with lower bit depth ADCs.

What preamp was he going into? With what compressor in front of it? Tracking through a whole analog console front end? With what $100k, $200k? More? of monitoring gear that is ultra transparent and helps shows up any problems while tracking? And a very skilled talentand magic ear listening to the tracking?

And across multiple posts here you repeatedly seem to want to track hot, on a Mbox 2 for **** sake, and driving a low end monitoring chain... Right? Or are you using a decent preamp in front of the Mbox 2? An analog compressor? What monitors and/or headphones and amps are you monitoring throughout? An Mbox 2 internal preamp *will* sound like utter **** when pushed hot (unlike likely the case you quoted). IIRC you have had Bob Olhsson and others here in threads in the past try to hammer that point.

Fixating on having to hit some hot input level really is mathematical nonsense with modern DAWs. I am not sure what problem you are trying to solve but if it is again around output levels or "sounding loud" you are likely wasting your time. Can you get somebody to listen to your mixes and try to give you advice on how to improve them, using the gear you have, or help you improve that gear if it is a real handicap.

He was using a digi002 interface with built in standard compressor that comes with pro tools. No other preamps etc.

I have no preamp for my mbox2. Just an XLR mic plugged into to input 1. With that setup -15dbfs is to low. I hardly hear anything.

[Darryl Ramm]

Originally Posted by bryced87

He was using a digi002 interface with built in standard compressor that comes with pro tools. No other preamps etc.

I have no preamp for my mbox2. Just an XLR mic plugged into to input 1. With that setup -15dbfs is to low. I hardly hear anything.

Back to the volume control thing.

Set the preamp gain to what sounds best (not volume). Use the faders, (and compressors, EQ) and monitor volume knob to adjust what you hear downstream. If as you have reported in the past you are having to turn the preamp gain up high to get this input level, it is likely going to sound like ****, you have a ~$1 op-amp preamp input, that is likely working exactly as awfully expected.....

[Bookerv12]

Input 1 XLR is a mic pre-amp.

What you should do is, sit with someone who does this a lot and have them take you through the gain staging and signal flow process and how it all works.
It's not too hard, and you will come to realize that there is no magic involved.
Once you have a basic understanding, you can use it to your advantage doing all of your projects.
If you don't understand it, it will make your life hard.
I too work with a lot of guys who have had huge success in the rock world as engineers.
Half of them came from the tape/console world, and have a hard time letting go of the old way of gain staging, even though, as Darryl mentioned, there is no benefit whatsoever of hitting the input hard in the digital world.
Much to the contrary.
A lot of the hard and fast level rules that people throw out around here just don't really make too much sense or do you any good.

[JFreak]

1) use pre-fader metering when you record
2) yellow is the new red. drive the levels down until only peaks go to yellow
3) do the math. 24bit fixed-point wav contains 144dB dynamics and if your AD converter is really good and has 124dB dynamics (check the specs!) then you have 20dB headroom below 0dBFS --> anything hotter than -20dBFS is generally speaking a bad idea
4) you do have a volume knob on your monitors, don't you?

[bryced87]

Originally Posted by JFreak

1) use pre-fader metering when you record
2) yellow is the new red. drive the levels down until only peaks go to yellow
3) do the math. 24bit fixed-point wav contains 144dB dynamics and if your AD converter is really good and has 124dB dynamics (check the specs!) then you have 20dB headroom below 0dBFS --> anything hotter than -20dBFS is generally speaking a bad idea
4) you do have a volume knob on your monitors, don't you?

Here is what isn't making sense to me. There is no Yellow in Pro Tools 11. There is dark green, light green and then orange.

I have uploaded a screen shot to show you how I have my input level set. The meter looks really low if I set it to -20dbfs. Unless I'm confused what I'm supposed to looking at.

[Darryl Ramm]

Oh please, enough with the frigging colors.

You do realize how non-linear that meter scale is right? Kind of there for legacy reasons, for folks who come from analog days. I am not sure why you care about how things look on the meter. But if the appearance worries you change the meter type to Sample Peak or RMS or whatever, or cover the screen with a Post-It :-O

Stop fixating on how things look. Work out what is going on and listen to your tracking input (at some reasonable near constant output SPL) start with the guidance given here and make any adjustments to input gain based on what you hear.