Mixing Technique (Panning question)

[Dawacker3]

I am new to mixing and find myself wondering what would an expirenced engineer do differently than me. I have an R&B group, 4 male singers. This question is mainly about panning backround vocals.
What I have been doing is "Stacking" each part 4 times (having each person record their part 4 different times. Backround only of course). Sorry, I am not sure what terminology people are fimilure with.
In the mix I have:
The "1st tenor" part: first 2 tracks panned <100 Left and 100> Right. The next 2 tenor parts a litt1e less than that. Maybe (I am not sitting in front of the session) <95 left and 95>.

The "2nd tennor part": first 2 tracks panned <90 Left and 90> Right. The next 2 tracks a litt1e less than that. <85 left and 85> right.

The "Baritone": first 2 tracks panned <80 Left and 80> Right. The next 2 tracks a litt1e less than that. <75 left and 75> right.

The "Bass": first 2 tracks panned <60 Left and 60> Right. The next 2 tracks a litt1e less than that. <55 left and 55> right.

I also have 4 aux tracks for effects Rverb Compression delay.... Oh and a headphone mix.
And I have the sends panned exactly the same way.

The blend sounds ok to me, but when I listen to store bought "Professional" CDs they still seem to have more depth and pressence. I am curious as to what someone with more expertice would think about my technique, or what they would do differently.

[soundsurfr]

Whew. Tough questions. There are no right and wrong ways to do this, Dawacker. I'll give you some of my thoughts -

I call your technique of multiple vocal takes "doubling", but "stacking" works just as well for me. If I'm looking to create a wall of sound backing vocal (ala Bohemian Rhapsody), then I'll pan each double set of vocals hard left and right. However, if I'm looking to create a sense of space and placement among the singers, then I would need to put each set of vocals (1st Tenor, 2nd Tenor, Baritone, etc.) into it's own place in the mix. In other words, I might pan all 4 1st Tenor parts at 2 o'clock, and all 4 2nd Tenor parts at 10 o'clock.

Regarding depth and presence, that could have a lot to do with the Reverb and Compression. Compression, by definition, will reduce depth and reverb tends to reduce presence. One way to try tweaking depth is to send both compressed and uncompressed vocals to the main mix buss and gradually bring up the compressed vocals until they smooth out, but not so far as to flatten them completely. Also, use different reverb amounts and settings for the lead and background vocals.

Finally, the lack of depth and presence you feel may be a result of just too much stacking. Stacking is cool because it tends to eliminate pitch wavering and creates a fatter sound, but it also reduces feeling and dynamics. Do a mix with only the best single takes of each part and see how that compares to the stacked vocals. The answer may lie somewhere in between.

Hope this helps.

[Giles Reaves]

I'm with soundsurfr on all points regarding panning. My experience is that with 2 "stacks" per part you will get a full sound. With more than 2 the sound doesn't get much bigger, contrary to what you would expect. If the mix is dense to begin with, try soundsurfr's advice - cut back to one track per part, and maybe try two. It also depends on the quality of the voices, as to how many "stacks" sound right. The idea of panning ALL BGVs either hard left or hard right (in stacked pairs) ends up working much of the time. It helps "clear out" the center for the lead vocal. Once you put a little reverb on them, they will "fill in" a bit anyway. This approach is more "pop/rock" than tradional choir type panning.

Other general tricks to try:
For a dense mix, try cutting some bottom end out of the BGVs. I often create a sub-mix on an aux input, and do my EQ there. Assign all your BGV tracks to a pair of busses, and create a stereo Aux input with the same busses as it's input. Try a simple low shelf EQ cut, anywhere from 100-300Hz, and start with -3 to -6dB of cut.

This is also where I like to compress BGVs for a few reasons. First, it's "cheaper" DSP wise to use one stereo compressor rather than 4-8 or more mono compressors (that all have to be set the same, which is a pain when you want to make changes!). Second, I happen to like the way that a sub-mix compressor sounds, esp. when all the sources are so similar.

Additional notes:
Group your BGV tracks, and "Solo Isolate" your Aux "sub-mix" track. When you need to "solo" your BGVs, just solo one of the grouped tracks. Use the Aux track for FX sends (not your individual tracks) so your FX balances won't change if you change your sub-mix level. BTW, I usually leave the Aux fader at "0" and use the compressor "gain" to trim overall levels.

Don't forget to post back with your experiences! Good Luck.

[Dawacker3]

Surf Wow.. that is just the type of feedback I was looking for. THANKX!

The next thing I was going to try was having the first track of 1st tennor <100 and the Bass 100>
and work the same technique in reverse on both sides.
for example: (hope this dosn't complicate things)

.......L.................... R
1 tenor 1 <...100..Bass 3>
1 tenor 2 <...95....Bass 4>

2 tenor 1 <...90....Bari. 3>
2 tenor 2 <...80....Bari. 4>

..bari... 1 <...75..2tenor 3>
..bari... 2 <...70..2tenor 4>

..bass.. 1 <...65..1tenor 3>
..bass.. 2 <...60..1tenor 4>

I will try you technique of compression. I am in need of much practice on using compression.
what you have suggested makes perfect sense.
I do find that for me I like a more dry sound (less or no Reverb)
But when I listen to "pro" cd's I notice that the "lead" vocals are not "dry" but it dosent always sound like reverb. It just sounds clean.

Oh.. on of my aux tracks is EQ so I have 5 Stereo Aux tracks.
So much to learn.

[badperson]

I second the idea of only doubling the bgv's once. 4 different voices per part sounds like a lot of sonic hash, if each part is doubled just once, you'll get the balance and richness you need.

You could also consider only doubling one of the bg voices, or two, depending.

good luck.

bp

[Dawacker3]

I find if I pan all "BGV's" Hard left and right that I get distortion. I always thought this was because all the tracks were fighting for the same space, maybe not. Is this a compression issue?

I used to only stack 2. But I got advice from someone to do more. I guess it was his preferance.
Since they are there I will try Surfs technique of leaving 2 without compression.

[soundsurfr]

The idea of panning ALL BGVs either hard left or hard right (in stacked pairs) ends up working much of the time. It helps "clear out" the center for the lead vocal.

Good point.

For a dense mix, try cutting some bottom end out of the BGVs. I often create a sub-mix on an aux input, and do my EQ there.

Another really good suggestion.

[Dawacker3]

This is also where I like to compress BGVs for a few reasons. First, it's "cheaper" DSP wise to use one stereo compressor rather than 4-8 or more mono compressors (that all have to be set the same, which is a pain when you want to make changes!). Second, I happen to like the way that a sub-mix compressor sounds, esp. when all the sources are so similar.

I think I follow you. I have 1 stereo aux track for compression. Im not sure exatly what buss, but for example, I have it set to input bus 1-2. and output analog 1-2. All the BGV's have a bus to 1-2 and each "bus mix fader" (cntl + click on the bus and I see the internal mixer for that buss) this is how I set the send level and pan to the Aux track. (forgive me if this is common knowlage)

For each Audio track I will have a buss to ("a" 1-2), ("b" 3-4), ("c" 5-6) etc.
I usually do this once and duplicate the track.

Is this how you set up.

Not sure I follow what a sub-mix compressor is.

[da BaSsTaRd!]

here's an interesting thought: put them all in the same room in front of a stereo mic. record them together once, then double that except the second take will switch the panning (L becomes R, R becomes L). submix the 2 stereo tracks and send to a single stereo compressor and/or eq and verb.

[Dawacker3]

here's an interesting thought: put them all in the same room in front of a stereo mic. record them together once, then double that except the second take will switch the panning (L becomes R, R becomes L). submix the 2 stereo tracks and send to a single stereo compressor and/or eq and verb.

Intersting, but what is a stereo mic? Do you mean use 2 mics have one using mic line 1 and 2. Thats a thought.
I will try that.. Darn I only have one mic.