Eleven Rack and high gain

[SloeGin]

I loooove the 11 Rack. The Fender and Marshall models are amazing, they sound warm and natural. But i have a problem with the high gain models like Dual Rectifier and the MarkII+c.
Some patches sound too digital to me. Is it me or is there a problem with the high gain models?
A remark i've heard quite often is that 11R is more for old school rock and axe-fx more for high gain.
Do you guys agree on that?
What are your experiences with 11Rack and high gain?
What could be an improvement for high gain amps/ sounds (if there are any shortcomings ofcourse )?

[derker]

Hey man. I think part of the complaint of 'digital' tone comes from the cab/mic block, where certain combinations introduce frequencies perceivable as annoying or 'digital'. I use the amp's EQ along with a Graphic EQ (post-cab) to try and avoid these frequencies, but it's hard without a sweepable parametric.

I think if there is an improvement to be made, a parametric EQ is a big one. Being able to load user cab impulses is an even easier way to avoid these frequencies without having to band-aid with an EQ.

EDIT: Also, try paying special attention to the master volume in your amp block. Don't be afraid to dial it down!

[59tweed]

Originally Posted by derker

Hey man. I think part of the complaint of 'digital' tone comes from the cab/mic block, where certain combinations introduce frequencies perceivable as annoying or 'digital'. I use the amp's EQ along with a Graphic EQ (post-cab) to try and avoid these frequencies, but it's hard without a sweepable parametric.

I think if there is an improvement to be made, a parametric EQ is a big one. Being able to load user cab impulses is an even easier way to avoid these frequencies without having to band-aid with an EQ.

EDIT: Also, try paying special attention to the master volume in your amp block. Don't be afraid to dial it down!

I couldn't agree more. My feelings (on all points), exactly.

Originally Posted by derker

EDIT: Also, try paying special attention to the master volume in your amp block. Don't be afraid to dial it down!

Especially with certain guitars loaded with humbuckers, as my experience indicates. Many don't get a chance to crank the master on a Dual Rec or JCM 800 half stack, but what you hear in the 11R is perfectly representative of a response you might get from the real deal. Again, parametric EQ, maybe multiple micing instances and especially user IRs would go a looooong way to add flexibility and help to avoid certain sounds that may be annoying with a particular guitar/pickup/riff/playing style combination. More importantly, these would add more tools to achieve an ideal sound/texture that a player may be after.

[mr rhys]

I love the High-gain tones, there is such a rich array of tones even with the few models on there, I don't particularly require the amount of models the axe fx has. I have learnt a lot more about the high gain amps since I did the eleven rack all amp models demo early this year and feel I have made better tones now than in that video, I should really do a 'pt II'...

Here's a few tips that I use for high gain amps:

• Start with the tru-z on auto
• Disable volume, wah, all fx and have an amp and cab block
• Set the mic to SM57 off-axis
• Put a tube-screamer in front, set the drive to 0, tone at 12 o clock, and level on full
• Set the amp EQ to 12 o clock on every dial
• Put the Master lower than 12 o clock on the amp, probably around 10-11 o clock. After 12 starts to add some sag to the feel and more post amp compression, before 12 on the dial gives a tighter sound and lets the preamp distortion work.
  adjust the gain from 0 to desired amount, or until how saturated you want it. What I do here is palm-mute an open string just so there is a little left in the picking dynamics.
• Set an EQ block after the cab. Keep everything at unity gain and nudge the 2k up a little. Either a) boost the lows, or b) cut if there is too much 'flub' in the low-end. This depends on which model.
• Adjust the Amp EQ to what you are after. Bass for the low beefy-ness, mid for the cut, treble is one to watch as it can get quite ice-picky, and presence for the top end sparkle.

Hope that helps anyone else out there. Extra tips can be to put a light compressor after the tube-screamer, and an EQ block before the amp to tailor the sound from the Guitar a little more.
I do not use reverb in this instance as it gets too muddy. A little delay is good. :)

[Vercingetorix]

Originally Posted by SloeGin

I loooove the 11 Rack. The Fender and Marshall models are amazing, they sound warm and natural. But i have a problem with the high gain models like Dual Rectifier and the MarkII+c.
Some patches sound too digital to me. Is it me or is there a problem with the high gain models?
A remark i've heard quite often is that 11R is more for old school rock and axe-fx more for high gain.
Do you guys agree on that?
What are your experiences with 11Rack and high gain?

Of course there are shortcomings. But if you know what you are doing you can get a usable hi-gain sound. There are some people who even manage to make a genuine "high-gain" monster sound horrible. For instance, the "Monsters of High gain" shootout that "Premier Guitar" mag did managed to make 11 of the 13 amps they recorded with video sound awful. I was expecting to get a severe case of gas and I didn't get it at all. I was so, so disappointed .

Now on the other hand I was listening to a video made by Benjamin Spence on the ElevenRackPresets forum doing a cover of Slipknot's "Before I Forget" that it made me want to learn the song. Well, it's more playing along with it, rather that a cover. But that's what I am doing right now with Benjamin's preset, sweet . There is also another one, Distrubed's "Fear" which I will also learn as well.

And Benoni has made some excellent hi-gain patches as well.

So the 11R and hi-gain is fine for me - not perfect - it would need a 4/5 Para EQ band for that, but, here's hoping for that in the next iteration of the firmware.

[nst7]

If you want to hear the eleven plugin in action with hi gain sounds, check out the SixxAM record and Motley Crue's record from a couple of years ago. They used Eleven for all guitars on both records and I think they sound great.

[guitardom]

Originally Posted by SloeGin

I loooove the 11 Rack. The Fender and Marshall models are amazing, they sound warm and natural. But i have a problem with the high gain models like Dual Rectifier and the MarkII+c.
Some patches sound too digital to me. Is it me or is there a problem with the high gain models?
A remark i've heard quite often is that 11R is more for old school rock and axe-fx more for high gain.
Do you guys agree on that?
What are your experiences with 11Rack and high gain?
What could be an improvement for high gain amps/ sounds (if there are any shortcomings ofcourse )?

not sure of your amp experiences as far as the amps you have owned and do own. i am a boogie guy and have owned quite a few and am down to only my mark v.

the rectifiers and even the marks do have an annoying high end fizzle. seems to be centered around 5-7much of the time. the 11r does a good job of not hiding this. this something that is going to be dealt with in one way or another on most any recording w a boogie or dealt with by tube changes which is the BEST way to go imo. boogies shine with other tubes, the factory used tubes (rubys or low grade jj's typically) are not worth the ink to stamp the label on them and not sure why they do not stock bettter tubes.

but my point being, this is what i hear in my annoyance of the boogie patches that can make it sound digital or fake imo even though i know boogies have this, but i spend the time on mine to mod and tweak them to minimize it, so not used to hearing this prominent.

[tedats]

This is quite a problem, and I would really like to hear some thoughts from the Avid guys on this.

The Eleven Rack is fantastic in all other departments, but when it comes to that real heavy metal tone, it just doesn't have it.

I have come really close to getting a usable guitar tone for this type of music, but this is only say after adding the Black Ops distortion to give the distortion that consistent cutting.

Seems to me that its all about fuzz, and fuzz is just aweful for heavy metal. Even when you get a nice cutting dynamic distortion, there is this underlying buzzing, that just sounds plain nasty.

Nothing on the Eleven even comes close to the likes of

Bring me the horizon (suicide season)
Slipknot (iowa)
Unearth
All that remains
Killswitch engage
Lamb of God (wrath)

and i think thats a shame. This beast is like 1 tone away from being the absolute king!

I think that Avid really need to look at this type of music, work with producers who really know what the metal heads are after and nail it. (fredman studios maybe!)

I know i probably sound completely ignorant and showing massive lack of understanding of the challenges involved in doing this, but Id like to know more about why this isn't possible if that is the case.

I would love nothing more than to hear from the Avid guys just 'we're working on it' lol

Opinions! suggestions! :)

[guitardom]

Originally Posted by tedats

This is quite a problem, and I would really like to hear some thoughts from the Avid guys on this.

The Eleven Rack is fantastic in all other departments, but when it comes to that real heavy metal tone, it just doesn't have it.

I have come really close to getting a usable guitar tone for this type of music, but this is only say after adding the Black Ops distortion to give the distortion that consistent cutting.

Seems to me that its all about fuzz, and fuzz is just aweful for heavy metal. Even when you get a nice cutting dynamic distortion, there is this underlying buzzing, that just sounds plain nasty.

Nothing on the Eleven even comes close to the likes of

Bring me the horizon (suicide season)
Slipknot (iowa)
Unearth
All that remains
Killswitch engage
Lamb of God (wrath)

and i think thats a shame. This beast is like 1 tone away from being the absolute king!

I think that Avid really need to look at this type of music, work with producers who really know what the metal heads are after and nail it. (fredman studios maybe!)

I know i probably sound completely ignorant and showing massive lack of understanding of the challenges involved in doing this, but Id like to know more about why this isn't possible if that is the case.

I would love nothing more than to hear from the Avid guys just 'we're working on it' lol

Opinions! suggestions! :)

it might be best for you to post a patch or 2 of yours you are working on and guitar and pup details in order to get an idea of what you are doing. it could be user issues here as well. i can get some pretty rip roaring tones. the mark II simulator is the best for this imo.

might also want to look at how you are layering. these bands are not getting this sound with 1 rhythm track. also when layering sounds, it is also a lot less distortion than what many people might think. using a tube screamer to tighten the mids and add a bit of hair is about par. the boogie models with the gain about 3-6 somewhere is plenty of saturation. might seem odd, but the cleaner you can handle it, the heavier the tone will get. saturation sucks the life out of a guitar quick!! trust me, heavy is not all about distortion. the bands/albums you list are massively produced produced products except for maybe that particular lamb of god album. almost have to think along those lines, tons of guitar layers and tons of eq molding them.

[DAR Fritz]

As I dive deeper into my 11r I've enjoyed using the "distortion fx" i.e., turning the drive down and messing with the tone and volumes to shape my sound on various amps. Really like how the distortion fx sounds w/ the Vox AC30.