Stereo Bus Headroom - Venue Profile

[econoline]

Hi Everyone,

I've spent the last 2 hours reading posts and enjoying the tips and ideas from my fellow users - thanks. I'd like to know what you guys (and gals) have experienced with regards to the limitations of the stereo bus section of the Venue console. Let me give a synopsis of my situation and previous experience with the console.

I have experience touring with most large-frame analog consoles in the past, and have spent the last 5 years touring with Digico D5, Yamaha PM5D and 1D, and for the last 2.5 years, the Digidesign Venue Profile. I have generally been very happy with the experience and results of using the console. I am currently on tour mixing an opening act with the Profile desk. I am running out of the L/R analog outs to a group input of the headliner's Midas XL4.

The problem that I am having is that I am hitting the stereo bus of the Venue pretty hard, and am experiencing an audible "squashing" of my mix. The system is run by the "Dolby Lake" or "Clair I/O" that are now embedded in the Lab Gruppen amps, so I can see on my tablet that the limiting is not happening at the system stage. There is plenty of headroom at the output of the XL4, and that is definitely not where it is occurring, as the headliner is in approximately the same db level as me (actually about 1-2 db louder), and they are not having the same issue.

My first attempt to fix was to pull down the stereo fader. 7 shows later, I am having limited success at controlling the squashing at the stereo fader. At line check, the drums, bass, and guitars played separately sound fantastic through the PA. Come show-time, the summing is just seeming to cloud and squash the mix. After reading some posts, I now realize that my meters on the stereo bus may reflect the pre-fader level (which I will check tomorrow) - so - pulling the master fader down may actually be hurting the scenario, as I would still be overloading the send to the stereo bus. I set-up my VCA's so that the whole band is on1 VCA (which I have pulled back a little), and I can pull it down more.

Basically, I'd like to know if anyone else has experienced the same (or similar) issues with the console, and if you guys have any suggestions to work-around what I'm dealing with. Obviously the XL4 is about the best sounding live console ever made, so I expect to hear a difference in the sound of the 2 stereo bus sections. In the past, when I've had the Venue out with me, and carried my own PA, I have never had to push the console so hard. I have previously had great results with the Venue, but I currently feel like I've painted myself into a corner. As a result, my mixes aren't sounding bad, but they are definitely not where I want them to be, and know that they can be. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance.
Mike

[vlepore]

I assume by "squashing" you mean compression, but I'm wondering if there is any attenuation happening to your signal at the group direct input or master output of the XL4 that's causing you to have to drive your console hotter than expected. Is there any system compression/limiting happening pre the dolby lake processors? I've always felt like I had ample headroom from the Venue console master outs. Considering the fact that things operate normally when you take out your own PA with a Profile, that seems to narrow it down to having the XL4 and any associated processing inline between your console and the system....

[econoline]

My first thought was that there was some type of compression happening at the XL4 or Dolby Lakes, but there doesn't seem to be any. I've been trying to monitor the Lakes, and haven't noticed anything significant. There is an Alan Smart on the system, but I doubt that I'm hitting that (although it is possible) - but - I've been told that they are not using anything to limit me.

To be more specific, what I'm hearing is that the low-mids start to disappear as the band rocks out. I'm only hitting 101-102 dB with plenty of PA. I guess the question is specific to using the Venue as an opening console going into a headlining console. With the PA run directly out of the Venue, I've had no problem in the past. It just makes me wonder if there is anything that I can do to keep the master bus of the Venue a little more relaxed, while still getting good output.

[Scott Fahy]

Mike,
I'd ask the headliner FOH engineer to give you some more input gain on the channels of the Midas for your feed. I'd want to see at least +9 to +15 on peaks.

Scott

[Noiseboy50]

I'm with Scott on this one. You don't say what kind of input gain you're showing on the Midas but I can tell you that the XL4 input pre-amps are perfectly happy being driven very hard indeed and really sound great when showing well above zero db.
Also I assume that you've had a quick look at your output bus and don't have a bus compressor inadvertently sitting there, I never leave home without my Waves SSL bus compressor on left and right but i expect you'd know if you had dropped a comp there.

[digidesigner]

Maybe it's just me, but since I've started using digital consoles I have always felt my sound turns to s*** when I'm forced to go thru an analog console. And the best sound I get is always if I have the ability to run digital straight into PA processor. The difference I would say is HUGE! Especially with large flown systems where you really can hear the difference between different consoles and gear in general.

So if you are in good terms with the headliner, maybe they can give you an access to go straight into input B on the PA processor? If they say no, then you probably are getting squashed by their limiting... you are opening act after all so this is pretty standard. Been there, done that (Metal... Aeros... etc) If that's the case then I would suggest you use your own better limiting on your master fader before hitting their limiter. I would recommend getting Waves L3 and having that on your master fader. I would then adjust the threshold and output ceiling so that I get around 3-6db of occasional limiting and see if it sounds better. With my typical gain staging that would mean pulling threshold and ceiling down to about -18 or -15 dbfs on the L3. If it sounds better then delicately play around with output ceiling to see if you could go any louder without being "squashed". I bet your squashed sound comes from their limiter just having a long release time.

[econoline]

So... just got done line check. I worked a little on the gain structure, and since I had the master fader pulled back 5 db, I decreased the overall send to the stereo bus & pushed the main back up to 0. It was just sound-check, but I didn't notice the squashing. Show is usually more of a tell. I also spoke with the system's tech, and he confirmed that I'm not hitting any limiting at the Lakes, or at the Alan Smart. It seems possible that I was hitting the input to the stereo bus harder than I expected. I'd love to get a little more gain at their console, but I think politically (as digidesigner said) I am mixing the opener, and I'd rather not ask for too much. Likewise for using the 2nd input into the Lake system.

Again, like digidesigner said, I think part of the intention of my original post was to see what others have experienced when using the Venue feeding into a headliner's console. When mixing 2 shows last year for another band who was opening for a large international act, I noticed the same thing.

I am not using any bus compression, except Crane Song Phoenix at around -15. I've had good success in studio mixing with stereo bus compression, but not necessarily in live use. I am a fan of the Waves L2, but haven't used the L3 (and don't have licenses for either on the Venue). Maybe I'll demo the L3 & check it out.

Anyone else notice any faults with the stereo bus section of the Venue? I can definitely say that there is a significant difference in the sound of the summing busses between the XL4 & Profile - with the XL4 sounding bigger and MUCH more open. Is this just a condition of the digital math involved in the summing, or would increasing the quality of the analog chain (post the console's D/A converters) help out this situaion?

[digidesigner]

If you have L series for studio use just get the d-show enabler for like 50 bucks and you are ready to rock. I've used L3 as it has the LL (low latency) version. I don't personally use it in the studio that much but I was pleasantly surprised how good it is live. I would try to loose Phoenix just to see how it will sound without it. For summing I personally feel that Midas has a "Sound" that someone likes, me not, you may call me stupid I have no problem with that. But if you have a chance, talk to the tech and just try to run digital into PA and see how that sounds for you. I'll bet the word will be "fantastic"

[digidesigner]

One more thing about master bus, someone correct if I'm wrong but if you clip mix bus on the Venue, then master meters turn RED even tough you have your master fader down and you are not actually clipping the output, right?

Also about your Phoenix on master, you could of been clipping it's input without knowing it as there is no metering on that plug and as it works as compressor too you would not know it as the output would be lower cause of compression in the plug.

[Nicolas Lowman]

Hi Mike,

You said that you are coming into a group input on the XL4. I am guessing that you mean a direct inject input. This bypasses all the preamps and is the best way to come in.
Some suggestions I would make would be-
Make sure there isn't an insert on the group, the direct inject on the master bus is pre insert. Also if there is a VCA assigned to this group that will also affect your level.
Many of the XL4 desks that are out there have been around a long time, try a direct inject on a different group or better yet the stereo buss. Just because something is working on an analog desk, doesn't mean that it is working optimally.

FYI-I have heard of people using the Allan Smart on their system. Several years ago an engineer in the shop hooked up quite a few compressors to compare them and ran some music through them. The general consensus after this exercise was that none of us would put it on our entire mix. It is a great tool. However know and realize that it does have a fair bit of color and is not real transparent. Our thoughts were that it was much more suited on group of instruments than a system buss. The compressors like the Crane Song seemed much nicer on the system vs say the Allan Smart. All of this was just an opinion, I encourage you if you get the chance to listen to it in a controlled setting and form your own opinion. The stereo imaging will be affected differently with the different comps. Really listen to it and make sure that it is affecting your signal the way that you want it to.

Nicolas