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  #11  
Old 08-11-2020, 01:19 PM
Darryl Ramm Darryl Ramm is offline
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Default Re: Recorded signal delayed (LATENCY ISSUE)

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Originally Posted by Husmas View Post
I’m on 1024 and “normal”
Thanks. "Normal" is just the disk cache setting. It has nothing to do with latency.

I'm working at the moment, will get back to you with comments about what's going on later.

---

And the previous thread you pointed at on the UAD forum was just a well known "ignore errors" caused latency. That's been well discussed on DUC in the past. So not sure that's at all relevant here.
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  #12  
Old 08-11-2020, 01:21 PM
Darryl Ramm Darryl Ramm is offline
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Default Re: Recorded signal delayed (LATENCY ISSUE)

Dave--quick comment, please have another of the thread... no plugins so latency comp is not an issue. The question is.... this is a test, I suspect the test is behaving as expected... but I don't know what the original problem was.
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  #13  
Old 08-11-2020, 05:30 PM
albee1952 albee1952 is offline
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Default Re: Recorded signal delayed (LATENCY ISSUE)

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Originally Posted by Darryl Ramm View Post
Dave--quick comment, please have another of the thread... no plugins so latency comp is not an issue. The question is.... this is a test, I suspect the test is behaving as expected... but I don't know what the original problem was.
Ah, I did miss that (sometimes posters leave out details, and sometimes Dave leaves out his sanity)
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  #14  
Old 08-12-2020, 09:24 AM
Husmas Husmas is offline
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Default Re: Recorded signal delayed (LATENCY ISSUE)

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Originally Posted by albee1952 View Post
You might also check out LUNA(free to all Apollo owners) and see if that could be a solution

Last thing to check; look at the Delay Compensation numbers and watch for any that change when you put that track into record-ready. If that track suddenly gains a lot of compensation that makes no sense, it could be a send that has no destination(make sends inactive and see if the Delay Compensation number drops). This has happened to me a few times and it caused over 1900 samples of latency on the record-enabled track
Thanks for taking time to dive into my pile of weird stuff.

Crazy that dead end sends can generate that kind of latency.

About LUNA, I am aware of it, but it took me a long while to get kind of fluent in pro tools, and don’t really want to change horses now.
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  #15  
Old 08-12-2020, 10:50 AM
Darryl Ramm Darryl Ramm is offline
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Default Re: Recorded signal delayed (LATENCY ISSUE)

So again thanks for the latency numbers, that should help give an idea what you are seeing.

334 samples at 48 kHz = 7ms

It’s certainly not the large delay of 1024 or 2048 samples that you might be able to get could have from a playback buffer with more complex send routing (that's the other buffer that you have no control over the size of... unlike the IO buffer).

And it’s not plugin processing as you have no plugins.

And it’s not an IO buffer because you have that set to 1024 samples but are not seeing anything like that delay... and that's expected since Pro Tools corrects for IO buffer size, it does that automatically. You have no control over it and it has nothing to do with Pro Tools “delay compensation”... that is just for compensating for latencies introduced in plugins (OK strictly Pro Tools Ultimate/HD can correct for more, but that's a longer discussion).

And you don’t have ignore errors set in Pro Tools... that introduces an additional delay.

And you don’t have input delay compensation set in the UAD console.... but that only adds delays to correct any latency differences across the inputs on the interface caused by Plugins in the UAD console... and since you have no plugins in the console this will make no difference.

So what is it? Well nothing surprising, it's the RTL (round trip latency) but with Pro Tools automatically removed the IO buffer part of that latency, so you don't see the 1024 IO buffer sample here but you do see the input and output conversion latencies (that include real hardware latencies and any extra buffering etc. done in the driver), and since I think you are using a microphone it will include the latency of getting that audio signal from the monitors to the microphone... at ~.9 ms per ft.

UAD spec 1.1. ms analog to analog time for their Apollo interfaces through the console (so no IO buffer involved), but that's at 96 kHz. It's going to be a few ms at 48 kHz. Exact numbers I'm not sure on... but you are basically measuring those here. And could remove the physical "air" latency by connecting the output to an input via a cable. And you could run at 96 kHz and see how close to the 1.1 ms marketing claim you get. (and there are lots and lots of detailed RTL measurements of interfaces online).

The key to understanding what you're seeing is appreciated that Pro Tools automatically removes the IO buffer latency... but does not remove the conversion latency. That's not obvious and confuses lots of people... and maybe like with what you are doing people often run into this when they try to test things by doing a loopback test... and the results don't make sense.

----

That hopefully explains what you are seeing here in a test. It probably does not explain what problem you were having when tracking or why that seemed much worse than before. Maybe the test is just not relevant to that. It does not include any IO buffer latency which you would here if you are monitoring through Pro Tools... but it's not clear you are doing that... hopefully you are monitoring through the Console. And if so then it happen that people unintendedly put latency inducing UAD plugins in the console, the API Vision Channel strip is a good example... sneaking in 55 sample latency at the clock rates discussed here. And an aux in the console gets 32 sample latency. All this can add up. I've seen folks try to put the Precision Multiband EQ in the console.... uh nope.

Maybe if you can describe what you are doing, what you are recording, how you are monitoring and the things you have tried, folks here might be able to offer suggestions. If you really say have a vocalist who is super sensitive to in the head comb filtering you might just need to find a pure analog monitoring solution.
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  #16  
Old 08-13-2020, 11:24 AM
Husmas Husmas is offline
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Default Re: Recorded signal delayed (LATENCY ISSUE)

Thanks a lot for that impressive analysis of my issue. I too have to work though, before I address your points. Will be back...
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  #17  
Old 08-14-2020, 11:26 AM
Husmas Husmas is offline
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Default Re: Recorded signal delayed (LATENCY ISSUE)

So, back...
I am indeed monitoring through console, but for the purpose of the test, with no plugins whatsoever.

I first discovered the problem tracking some guitar. It felt kind of off, even though I felt like the performance was okay. After a lot of takes that really did a number on my confidence, I looked into the latency.

At that time I was recording through console with heaps of plugins and inserts activated in console as well as pro tools.
Like I said, that had worked in the past, but suddenly didn't any more.

Same thing with vocals, although not quite as obvious as far as timing issues goes, compared to the guitars. Probably good thing it wasn't rap vocals, 'cause that would've made it much more obvious.

Since last time I tried a bunch of things, to no avail:

Tried installing 18.10 and 18.12 - none of the worked since my subscription expired prior to their release.
Got a trial version of 2020.5 - no change (although I managed to get the sample count down to aprox 320, as compared to the original 334)
Tried every supported uad version of their software, no difference.
Now, my plan was to try to find an old pt installer prior to 12.4, since that version, according to UAD rep on their forum, was where the bug started. I haven't had any luck finding that file yet though.

So right now I'm back where I started, trying to install 18.7 again.
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  #18  
Old 08-14-2020, 04:11 PM
Darryl Ramm Darryl Ramm is offline
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Default Re: Recorded signal delayed (LATENCY ISSUE)

Whoa. Hang on. There is no latency problem that is likely to be caused by these different Pro Tools version. So I'd stop reinstalling software. Something likely entirely different is causing your problems. And I suspect the problem might be starting you in the face and you are just missing it. Or something like not doing careful steps like maybe trashing prefs or starting with clean empty sessions.

And often with latency problems you can make progress by *measuring* the latency. Is it explained by expected console latency, buffer size, large 1k/2k read buffer, a possible plugin latency etc. so do the detective work with some math involved. If its latency when monitoring via the console then troubleshoot it *without* Pro Tools (and at other times use Pro Tools to record and measure the monitor latency).

Last edited by Darryl Ramm; 08-14-2020 at 08:13 PM.
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  #19  
Old 08-16-2020, 06:23 AM
Husmas Husmas is offline
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Default Re: Recorded signal delayed (LATENCY ISSUE)

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Originally Posted by Darryl Ramm View Post
Whoa. Hang on. There is no latency problem that is likely to be caused by these different Pro Tools version. So I'd stop reinstalling software. Something likely entirely different is causing your problems. And I suspect the problem might be starting you in the face and you are just missing it. Or something like not doing careful steps like maybe trashing prefs or starting with clean empty sessions.

And often with latency problems you can make progress by *measuring* the latency. Is it explained by expected console latency, buffer size, large 1k/2k read buffer, a possible plugin latency etc. so do the detective work with some math involved. If its latency when monitoring via the console then troubleshoot it *without* Pro Tools (and at other times use Pro Tools to record and measure the monitor latency).
Right, so thanks for the motivational post. I was close to throwing everything in the bin.
Postponed it for a while, I guess.
Did some testing. Didn't reach any results yet, but I think I've excluded the apollo as culprit:
- Made a new profile on my macbook and tried the same test with click here. - no difference
- Tried the same test in garaband. Same result. Still delayed.
- Tried using the macbook's internal microphone for the test. No difference (hence the apollo theory)
- Tried hanging a set of headphones directly on the mic and cranked them - No real difference (RTL theory)

- Discovered that the amount of delay is pretty irregular. Most of the time it's in the start 300's. But sometimes it's in the start 200's... Also, and this might be super logical, I'm not sure, but recording something in a dense session with 40+ tracks and tons of plugins, gives me latencies (or delayments) between 4000/5000 ish.

- Also, in the process of trying out 2020.5 I got a trial license. I've since reverted back to 2018.7, but now my pro tools is "ultimate", all though stuff like "Heat" only appears in the menus about half of the times I load Pro Tools.

So, no real solution yet. But I suspect you might be right on the "staring me in the face part" (Actually tried unplugging my secondary screen, just to make sure)

Theories as of today:
- something in my OSX changed and I need to do something
- Repair install (is that still an option you get)
- Upgrade to newer OSX, at the cost of having to upgrade PT as well, cause 18.7 doesn't support anything above 10.13.6
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  #20  
Old 08-16-2020, 10:17 AM
Darryl Ramm Darryl Ramm is offline
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Default Re: Recorded signal delayed (LATENCY ISSUE)

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Originally Posted by Husmas View Post

Theories as of today:
- something in my OSX changed and I need to do something
- Repair install (is that still an option you get)
- Upgrade to newer OSX, at the cost of having to upgrade PT as well, cause 18.7 doesn't support anything above 10.13.6
Not a single one of these things would be on my list to worry about now.

It'd much more likely something you are doing. A hidden PT track with a high latency plugin on it. A convoluted routing back from Pro Tools into the Console. Accidently software monitoring when you think you are only hardware monitoring. A high latency plugin in the console, etc. Maybe its corrupted session or preferences, so always start by excluding that. Then start as absolutely as simple as possible, totally empty session, everything reset in the Apollo console and see. Again if you suspect console.. reproducing issues without Pro Tools being involved, etc. Strip stuff sown to the absolute minimum.
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