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  #31  
Old 04-30-2014, 09:28 AM
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MIKEROPHONICS MIKEROPHONICS is offline
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Default Re: Undipped music stem

Hi Charles

If the stems are correctly made then no - it is not hard to do. Often there is not the time/budget to attempt any re-balance though and that is why it is not you and your nice studio that want it this way, but someone else in "less than first world" studio environments who is battling to do this with limited time and tech facilities

A&E UK are usually provided mono dialogue and a stereo Mus & FX track - the problem is that the stems that come from the USA are more often than not wrong. Mostly because the M&E is not mixed first and the concept is poorly understood.

A&E UK often has to mix the M&E (by mixing the DX and the MX/FX mix) and dip the M&E under the new English VO all at the same time - to provide PAL territories with an undipped PAL M&E and a PAL English Mix.

A few years back, to do all this at the same time as laying back to HDcam and worrying about sync (which is often out due to bad pull-downs or poor standards conversion) and different loudness and peak levels was a mindful at once.
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  #32  
Old 04-30-2014, 09:32 AM
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MIKEROPHONICS MIKEROPHONICS is offline
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Default Re: Undipped music stem

here's a hopefully helpful video from Pro-Tools-Expert where Mike Thornton and I discuss how to make undippeded M&E mixes, and how to lay out your templates and why.

It is not intended to teach seasoned pros how to suck eggs (before you even start), but if you are not sure or have little experience at this, it will guide you along your way and prevent you from making silly errors.

MODERATOR - CAN YOU MOVE THIS TO THE TOP OF THE THREAD PLEASE?
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Last edited by MIKEROPHONICS; 04-30-2014 at 09:33 AM. Reason: would like moderator to move to top of thread
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  #33  
Old 04-30-2014, 02:19 PM
Paul Maunder Paul Maunder is offline
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Default Re: Undipped music stem

Thanks for taking the time to produce this video Mike. It's very useful and helps to clarify a number of points.
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  #34  
Old 04-30-2014, 05:30 PM
philper philper is offline
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Default Re: Undipped music stem

Very illuminating, thanks to all involved.

I have one cavil: I hate how the mix sounds when the foreign version dips everything under the revoiced sync. Basically the music dies, because it is tied to everything else in the M+E. For our films I try to find a way to allow the music to work as well as it does in the American version in other language zones, mostly by giving them the undipped music stem that these guys see as unnecessary now….

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  #35  
Old 05-01-2014, 12:52 AM
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MIKEROPHONICS MIKEROPHONICS is offline
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Default Re: Undipped music stem

But that is how most foreign territories do things and are used to. It isn't about what you like. You are not paying for the Reversioning session. If you dip under the sync on the music audio group you can send them a n undipped music stem from a pre fader output there.. The important thing is to attack all projects in this manner and provide correctly made stems to all your clients and make the M&E the mix you do first. They then have a fighting chance to mix reasonably within their budgets.
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  #36  
Old 05-01-2014, 06:58 PM
philper philper is offline
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Default Re: Undipped music stem

Quote:
Originally Posted by MIKEROPHONICS View Post
But that is how most foreign territories do things and are used to. It isn't about what you like. You are not paying for the Reversioning session. If you dip under the sync on the music audio group you can send them a n undipped music stem from a pre fader output there.. The important thing is to attack all projects in this manner and provide correctly made stems to all your clients and make the M&E the mix you do first. They then have a fighting chance to mix reasonably within their budgets.
It might not be about why I like but it is certainly about what the director likes, and what my clients want is to have the other versions be as much like their original mix as possible. No arguement about your making of the M+E for those who will only use that, but I want to also give them well-made split stems so they can do a better job of it if they want to/can. If the stems are made as well as you prescribe and are of identical length then I don't find it really more time consuming to line them up and group the tracks, as well as ungroup them where a better mix could be made so. I have done this when getting stems from others many times. When you give them your M+E made according to your prescription, do you give them split stems as well? Or is that decision out of your hands, a matter of contracts etc?

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  #37  
Old 05-02-2014, 01:12 AM
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MIKEROPHONICS MIKEROPHONICS is offline
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Default Re: Undipped music stem

Yes, of course I do. For everything I do I hand over Dx, Mx, Fx, DME (where the Dx MX FX add up to the M&E) , Vo and Full Mix. I only vary this if the deliverables require it. I don't send PT sessions.
It is the choice of the prduction what to send to their foreign sales,
For 95% of occurrences this is great.
The delivery requirement of most broadcasters is a mix and a DM&E. I recommend my clients to be nice and send the stems too like I do for them. I am often not asked by production companies for them, but offer them and explain the benefit for promos etc.
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  #38  
Old 06-24-2014, 11:11 AM
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dalonso66 dalonso66 is offline
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Default Re: Undipped music stem

I'm trying to figure out a way to accommodate Discovery's Undipped Stems. I usually have an aux set up as a DME dipper to dip under narration. Discovery wants undipped music and undipped fx as if dialog or narration weren't present. Do you guys do all of your dipping of music and effects exclusively on Aux Tracks then take a pre fader send to an undipped bus? Of course if these 2 stems don't need to retain a relative balance to the full mix (i.e flattened for promo purposes) then it won't be hard. I'm currently awaiting some clarification from Discovery.

Last edited by dalonso66; 06-24-2014 at 06:42 PM.
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  #39  
Old 06-25-2014, 04:39 AM
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MIKEROPHONICS MIKEROPHONICS is offline
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Default Re: Undipped music stem

How odd of them. It makes no sense as the stems won't add up to the M&E - but hey.
Give them what they want. You can either do it the way you suggested, or have an aux that does the music/FX dip under the sync, which has a pre fade o/p for the stem record. Make sure you only dip the M&E mix under the VO (Narr), otherwise you will be delivering a dipped M&E.
You will have to be careful to dip the right thing at the right time.
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  #40  
Old 06-25-2014, 09:32 AM
noiseboyuk noiseboyuk is offline
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Default Re: Undipped music stem

Mini hijack - I was on the viewer end of undipped music stems going wrong the other day. Favourite programme ever - Mythbusters - is usually beautifully dubbed. But I saw one on Discovery UK a few weeks ago which had gone horribly wrong. The UK VO was fine - music dipping as normal - but everything else was a disaster. After a while I figured out that they must have been working with music that had bypassed all automation completely. You couldn't really hear any of the presenters as the music stayed at full whack...

It's the only one I've ever seen (heard) like that though. Usually the credit is to Mark Tanner sound who is in Sydney I believe, but iirc this one was a different credit.
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