11R and EZ workflow

[Fezzler]

Like many home recorders enjoying production on a budget, I have accumulated new/used equipment as I could afford it or as my needs have changed from an engineering/producing and sound quality perspective.

I am at the point where I have several workflow options and trying to determine the best workflow has me scratching my head.

Windows 8.1; PT 11.3.1; I7; 16GB Ram; SSD #1; 7200 RPM Audio Drive.

- 11R - you know the I/Os
- Roland Quad Capture USB2 - 2 Channel I/O with digital I/O
- M-Audio Firewire 410 400 (no Win8 drivers - so moot with new PC)

QUESTION #1: Use the 11R or Quad Capture form my PT main Audio Interface?


- Audient Mico 2 Channel I/O plus digital out Pre-Amp
- PreSonus Tube Pre V2
- Old Midiman Fineline rack mixer. This has 4 mic pres that can be summed at master I/O or isolated at dedicated R/L I/O outs. This mixer can be either a 10 channel stereo mixer or 20 channel mono mixer. When stereo, the 10L output to L Out; 10R to R Out. When mono, all go to L&R summed (but there are L&R pots for master out.) And, two sets of independent stereo inputs summed to one send out.

Samson C-Control monitor/signal manager.

What I am thinking is I should use the Fineline in stereo mode; route the output of the Mico/Tube Pre V2 to the input of the Fineline and use that as a the mixer. Have the out put of the Fineline go to the Line input on the 11R. Not sure I need the Quad Capture. This way I can do some stereo recording of acoustic guitar and route to separate tracks; have easy use of 11R and retain ability to embed setting on tracks; can use the other Fineline mic pres as needed and connect as needed other things to it.

I guess I was stumped on 1) incorporating Quad Capture since I have it; Is the Quad Capture a better audio I/O than the 11R.

I have the main outs of the 11R routed to the Samson control and that sends to my studio monitors, headphone or second set of reference speakers. I also send one of the Samson signals to the input of my Firewire 410 that is still connected to my old Core Duo pc and can capture.

Other gear (keyboard, drum machine, etc.) I'll route into the Fineline as well as needed.

So the "hub" is the 11R/Fineline.

Any thoughts appreciated. (Budget is not here for more gear at this time. I need to use what I have.)

[Fezzler]

Well, despite 245+ views, no thoughts? That's okay, I realize not knowing my equipment makes providing ideas too time consuming for even the most generous DUC member.

Here is what I have decided:

- Main L&R outs of my Fineline rack mixer going into the Line Inputs of the 11R.
- PreSonus Tub Pre V2 going into one R input of the mixer.
- Audient Mico inputs Ch.1 and Ch. 2 going to L and R mixer input independently.
- The 4 rack mixer mic pres outputs are set independent of the main out, in stereo mode, and loop them back to L&R main out. Essentially allows Mic 1&2 to be on L and 3&4 R. Other mono mode setting was they all go to the L&R of the main and are summed.
- 11R Main out to my Samson C-Control. Sampson routes to my KKR monitor; or into the M-Audio Firewire 410 line input. FW 410 connected to old computer (so can record on it still); or to my Bose desktop speakers for a reference.

NEW QUESTION - GAIN STAGING:

The 11R Line In has the switch that can be set for +4 or -10 dBV; The main outs of the rack mixer provide +12 dB of gain when turned all the way up. What setting should the 11R Line Input be set to?

How do I think about gain staging, especially with the Audient Mic Pre, in this setting? Do I make the first device in the signal path (Mico) strong and then go up the line?

I guess I will not need my Roland Quad-Capture. Again, wondering if it is a better A/D converter than 11R? And, not using my digital I/O and not sure if I should. I would use the digital out of the Mico as it has good converters, BUT I want to use the mic pre for stereo acoustic guitar recording and can send Ch. 1 and Ch. 2 to two tracks.

Come to think of it, I'm not sure I can do that in my set up. Will I be able to route 11R Line in L to one track in PT and R to a second?

[Fezzler]

Just heard from Audient that the one AES/SPDIF digital out actually does send a L&R signal. So, will PT 11 and the 11R AES/SPDIF in see two channels as well? If yes, my be worth considering and letting the Mico do the A/D conversion before sending to 11R.

Get's confusing.

In Windows 7 32-bit, I could not have use my M-Audio Firewire 410 and 11R audio inputs running at the same time and switch as desired. PT only saw the FW 410. I wonder in Win8 if I can have the Roland Quad Capture and 11R running and switch to either in PT set-up as needed?

[Darryl Ramm]

How much *gain* something has does not completely tell you what line level input works best. You need to know what *level* the output is intended to work at. For old Midiman mixers, I have no idea, but suspect they might be consumer -10 dBV. I would hope the manual would tell you.

Run a hot sine wave signal out the output of the mixer and measure with a true RMS multimeter or scope, if its > 1 V rms it should be +4 dBu Output.

Otherwise just select whatever level setting for line in works best/sound best for you. Not a lot of mystery here.

[Darryl Ramm]

Originally Posted by Fezzler

Just heard from Audient that the one AES/SPDIF digital out actually does send a L&R signal. So, will PT 11 and the 11R AES/SPDIF in see two channels as well? If yes, my be worth considering and letting the Mico do the A/D conversion before sending to 11R.

Get's confusing.

In Windows 7 32-bit, I could not have use my M-Audio Firewire 410 and 11R audio inputs running at the same time and switch as desired. PT only saw the FW 410. I wonder in Win8 if I can have the Roland Quad Capture and 11R running and switch to either in PT set-up as needed?

You should be able to have multiple ASIO (or ASIO4ALL) compatible interfaces connected and select the one you want to use by switching the Pro Tools playback engine.

The 11 Rack has one Digital In stereo channel, available via S/PDIF or AES/EBU. You can do whatever you want in Pro Tools with that channel as a stereo pair or individual mono channels. You can also use the Digital In L, R or L+R input as an input to the Eleven Rack rig, including concurrently recoding that Digital In in Pro Tools.

All these things are well covered in the Eleven Rack Users Guide.

[Fezzler]

Originally Posted by Darryl Ramm

How much *gain* something has does not completely tell you what line level input works best. You need to know what *level* the output is intended to work at. For old Midiman mixers, I have no idea, but suspect they might be consumer -10 dBV. I would hope the manual would tell you.

Run a hot sine wave signal out the output of the mixer and measure with a true RMS multimeter or scope, if its > 1 V rms it should be +4 dBu Output.

Otherwise just select whatever level setting for line in works best/sound best for you. Not a lot of mystery here.

Pretty thin manual for mixer. Here is what I could find:

- "The level of the Left and Right mixed Output signal pots provide 12 db gain when turned all the way up."

- "The gain provided when the Left and Right Level pots are turned all the way up can help drive a power amplifier or boost a signal from -10 to +4 db signal levels. For unity gain and the lowest mixer noise these pots should be set to about 9 o'clock."

- The Output Levels of the FineLine are controlled by the front panel Left and Right pots. When set to 9 o'clock FineLine has unity gain, which is the best setting if you are going into a mixing board. If you are going into a power amplifier these pots will act as convenient volume controls."

- As far as the Mico gain, it has a range of 18-66dB (-2 to 46 dB with a -20 pad turned on)

- The PreSonus offers -15 to +65 bB

- The FineLine has TRS balanced outputs so the 11R manual says to set the Line Input to +4

I don't own a True RMS multimeter or scope.

[Darryl Ramm]

Well there you go, use +4 dBu, unless the inputs level seems like they are too low to you, in which case try the switch in the -10 dbV position. You can't hurt anything.

And I was not thinking, you are OK using any old multimeter as long as you are using a sine wave audio frequency input. With the output turned up if you have about 1 V RMS or 1.4 V peak-peak you have a +4 dBu output. Measured between hot and cold for a balanced connector or signal and ground for a single sided connector.

[Fezzler]

Originally Posted by Darryl Ramm

You should be able to have multiple ASIO (or ASIO4ALL) compatible interfaces connected and select the one you want to use by switching the Pro Tools playback engine.

The 11 Rack has one Digital In stereo channel, available via S/PDIF or AES/EBU. You can do whatever you want in Pro Tools with that channel as a stereo pair or individual mono channels. You can also use the Digital In L, R or L+R input as an input to the Eleven Rack rig, including concurrently recoding that Digital In in Pro Tools.

All these things are well covered in the Eleven Rack Users Guide.

Thanks. I'll try. On my old PC when the M-Audio FW 410 was on and the 11R was, the 410 would appear as the input device only. No way to select the 11R. Perhaps this will be different on new pc.

Perhaps one SPDIF being able to be used as 2 mono or stereo input is common knowledge, but I didn't see that referenced in either the 11R or Mico manuals in a manner I understood. So thanks man. You give tough love but sound advice.

[Fezzler]

Originally Posted by Darryl Ramm

Well there you go, use +4 dBu, unless the inputs level seems like they are too low to you, in which case try the switch in the -10 dbV position. You can't hurt anything.

And I was not thinking, you are OK using any old multimeter as long as you are using a sine wave audio frequency input. With the output turned up if you have about 1 V RMS or 1.4 V peak-peak you have a +4 dBu output. Measured between hot and cold for a balanced connector or signal and ground for a single sided connector.

Know that I know both the Mico and 11R SPDIF can be two channels (L&R), I am wondering if I should use SPDIF and let the Mico handle the A/D conversion. I'm guessing Audient would have better converters than the 11R.

[Darryl Ramm]

Originally Posted by Fezzler

Thanks. I'll try. On my old PC when the M-Audio FW 410 was on and the 11R was, the 410 would appear as the input device only. No way to select the 11R. Perhaps this will be different on new pc.

Perhaps one SPDIF being able to be used as 2 mono or stereo input is common knowledge, but I didn't see that referenced in either the 11R or Mico manuals in a manner I understood. So thanks man. You give tough love but sound advice.

What version of Pro Tools were you using, anything Pro Tools 9 or later should let you pick any ASIO interface. If interfaces don't show up I'd suspect driver problems or drivers that don't want to be shared opened by Windows sound or some other application.

Look at the choices in the input selector button on a track, you should see the stereo pairs and mono components all available for you to choose. Nothing special there about the Eleven Rack. All interface input IO is just mono channels. Setup>IO and default definitions for an interface controls what Pro Tools thinks a stereo pair is. It is worth trying to understand how all that IO setup stuff works (see the Pro Tools Reference Guide), confusion about that seems unfortunately very common, and some of the behavior is non-obvious/requires reading the documentation.