Carbon vs Apollo

[jmp72]

Originally Posted by Darryl Ramm

No. That article is sadly confused marketing fluff.

Read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audio_Video_Bridging and tell me where it mentions TCP/IP/UDP... it only touches on that in talking about other standards like AES67 (more comparable to Dante than AVB).

Dante is an Audinate proprietary protocol based on UDP (part of the TCP/IP family).

They might look alike to the end users but technically Dante and AVB are very different, a technical chalk and cheese comparison, including just where these standards come from.

AVB is an extension to Ethernet standards, developed/published by the IEEE.

IEEE standards have nothing directly to do with TCP/IP/UDP. The standards there are are all developed separately by the IETF RPC process. Just politically to start with the IEEE would not be managing audio standards that run on TCP/IP/UDP, its not even in their bailiwick.

Which directly leads to things like *Ethernet* switches with AVB support, inability to directly run AVB over a TCP/IP WAN router. etc. To many users none of this might matter, to folks looking to set up more complex networks it sure can.

AVB can be used in layer 3 and AoIP like other aes67 (dante, ravenna...) so yeah AoE, but AoIP too

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audio_over_Ethernet

[BScout]

Originally Posted by jmp72

AVB can be used in layer 3 and AoIP like other aes67 (dante, ravenna...) so yeah AoE, but AoIP too

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audio_over_Ethernet

The Carbon doesn't use standard AVB.
All that is out the window because of that. It might as well be a completely different protocol the way Avid have decided to use it.
The Carbon's AVB is not compatible with any other AVB system -- it's all marketing. You can't implement any of the features of AVB and it is a point-to-point protocol the way Avid has used it.

At least Metric Halo is very direct on their ethernet implementation being a closed system while Avid plays buzzword bingo for marketing.

[Darryl Ramm]

And that AVB ain't going to be using TCP/IP/UDP for Audio transport (of course it is very likely to use TCP for control/management). Avid is not going to go off an invent another whole layer of cruft when they can pick up and use the core AVB transport bits, IP, silicon etc. for free or very low cost.

But... just send me a Carbon and I'll have that Ethernet traffic disassembled pretty fast. I promise I will send it back.

The whole use of (yes nonstandard) AVB in this product is just weird. I can only assume a kind of Conway's law (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conway%27s_law) with Avid having a bunch of live audio folks who knew how to/wanted to implement AVB. Maybe some belief they could pair down latency with AVB vs Dante. Maybe some sticker shock from Audinate licensing fees????

Meanwhile DAD is all in with Dante, not that it makes much difference since the AVB is crippled here. A worse cynic than me might wonder if the crippling might even be a marketing effort to stop folks asking for AVB interoperability with other Avid DSD based products.

It should have been Thunderbolt IMNSHO, at least that would have gotten some penetration into the Windows world. Oh well, some of us old folks are still in love with MADI. Now where did I put my slippers.

[Obsidian Dragon]

Getting back on topic, and offering a different opinion:
I recently had the opportunity to listen to both the Carbon and the UAD Apollo in a listening room using the same mic (one that I am well familiar with), simple direct signal chain and my own near-field monitors. Here is my opinion (YMMV).

While the Carbon preamps are good, I felt they were a little sterile. They will be fine for tracking acoustic instruments if getting an accurate and linear sound was the intent. For vocals, however, they felt harsh and brittle. A little EQ helped but still seemed lifeless to me. I've been at this for almost 40 years so I know what I want to hear.

The UAD Apollo with no plugins in the chain and just going through the Unison preamps sounded richer and full of harmonic detail. I would not go so far as to say that it colored the sound, but more like it revealed more of the original sound that was there to begin with. Both the vocalist and I felt more inspired and confident with this sound.

Honestly, you won't go wrong with either choice. To my ears, I prefer the Apollo. Adding the ability to use UAD plugins in tracking and monitoring with near zero latency works well with my workflow and also helps vocalists perform better. Again, others have chimed in here that they like the Carbon better (much better), so take my comments only as an opinion. The OP has already made his purchase so good for him. For others considering these options, I suggest using your own ears (or audio measurement equipment) to decide for yourself. We are blessed to live at a time to be able to have these choices.

[noah330]

Originally Posted by Obsidian Dragon

Getting back on topic, and offering a different opinion:
I recently had the opportunity to listen to both the Carbon and the UAD Apollo in a listening room using the same mic (one that I am well familiar with), simple direct signal chain and my own near-field monitors. Here is my opinion (YMMV).

While the Carbon preamps are good, I felt they were a little sterile. They will be fine for tracking acoustic instruments if getting an accurate and linear sound was the intent. For vocals, however, they felt harsh and brittle. A little EQ helped but still seemed lifeless to me. I've been at this for almost 40 years so I know what I want to hear.

Thanks! I would expect as much. The thing is, I use eight preamps maximum and have a few more colorful preamps. I love my Omni's pres because (1) they work well on just about anything and (2) they're not colored. That's what I have the API/UA/ADL pres and a console for.

I know Unisyn is really neat and I would have liked to have the option, but for the money I had to spend I couldn't get into a comparable UA setup.

[noah330]

I'm trying to figure out the best way to hook up my Carbon.

I may have to get a patchbay. On the DB-25 I have:

1- LA-2a
2- LA-2a
3- 1176
4
5
6
7- Lexicon 300
8- Lexicon 300

* I'm planning on adding an API-2500 on 5-6

The issue is mainly how to handle my preamps. I have:

1- API 312
2- API 312
3- ADL-600
4- ADL-600
5- UA 610

I looked in the manual and I am going to use a patch panel I already own to run 8 XLRs into the rear of the Carbon. I can set these to Mic and use the internal preamps.

I'm assuming if I set the built-in XLRs to line I could do a line out of my pres and into Carbon via XLR.

The XLR panel I have right now is an ART 16 channel. I could have 8 going into the rear of the Carbon, which I could use as mic ins, then five going to
the ins of my preamps.

If I were to buy another one of these panels I could run the XLR out of the preamp to the panel and then run a short patch to the other panel's XLR -> Carbon (set to line).

I also have an SSL AlphaLink (24 analong ins/outs and 24 ADAT). I'm hoping I can use 16 channels of analog ins/outs via lightpipe with this. Otherwise I could sell it and grab a couple of the Behringers, but the SSL would be preferred.

[trimix]

Originally Posted by noah330

Thanks, everyone!

I went with Carbon for a few reasons:

1- I have found the preamps in my Omni very useful. I'm assuming the newer Carbon pres are at least as good.

2- I'm not looking to use other DAWs. I use FCP occasionally and RX, which I use through AudioSuite.

3- I like the headphone system in Carbon. Seems like a small thing, but I have a drum kit and vocal booth, as well as guitar and bass areas. This seems to simplify things and I can eliminate three headphone amps.

4- I like the idea of Unisyn preamps, but have a few nice preamps already (API, UA, etc.) I just don't think it's something I 'need'.

5- Always been interested in AAX DSP. Does anyone know if I'll get any DSP plugs with the current Avid bundle? Also, do Plugin Alliance DSP cost more or are they included (once supported?).

6- Price. I bought the carbon for under $2000 shipped. Alto is having a sale on it. For a comparable Apollo it would be about $600+ more

7- Sound Quality - I've heard that Apollo sounds good, but not as good as the HD interfaces. I feel more comfortable with Avid

8- Closed system. Again, probably doesn't matter but I have a Mac Studio and will have Carbon. I know it will work.

I'll just have to figure out how to hook my AlphaLink up ADAT. I'll lose eight of the ins/out, but 16 is enough for me.

I bought a B stock from Alto without software as well, to use in an expanded set-up with my original Carbon.

5. No software means no bundled plug-ins so far as I understand it, I didn't get any additional licenses when registering the new unit, but had them from the original Carbon bundle already. The PA plug-ins that support AAX DSP have a unified installer that includes the AAX DSP version/license.

[noah330]

A few things:

1- I called Avid and they gave me all of the software I needed.

2- About a year ago I bought a TT patch bay from a C-24 for about $100 or something on eBay. When I got it the workmanship was beautiful but nothing was normal.

It turns out this is the perfect patch bay for Carbon!

I have my preamps on 1-8 (I have five, so a couple of blanks)

I have my outboard on 9-16 (I have five, so a couple of blanks)

I have my old Otari MX5050 8 track on 17-24

I'm using the Submix out L-R as a stereo link for my LA-2As

There are 8 Protools ins/outs on DB25 - going into Carbon.

There is a pair of DB-25s I'm not using yet, but I have some ideas.


I have an SSL Alpha-Link that's 24io with ADAT. Tomorrow I'm going to try to get 16 of these on the ADAT jacks.

----

Impressions of the Carbon:

Sound - I like it better than my old setup of Omni and SSL for outboard

Setup - Very easy. These were the issues I had:

1- I had a Wal-Mart ethernet and it didn't show up. I put the included one in and it worked perfectly (I have a Mac Studio M1)

2- It took me a minute to understand that the Input has to be switched to LINE for the DB-25s to show up.

3- I miss an AES jack and would settle for SPDF. I don't want to lose an ADAT port, so I'll go analog with my Lexicon 300. I've heard it sounds better that way and if it gets a bad clock sometimes the chip needs to be removed and grounded out so this is probably a good thing.

4- It is SILENT.

5- I was HDN and now I don't need an expansion chassis, which is great


--- Question:

Are PA AAXDSP plugins working? I know regular AAX Silicone is not.

Here is the patchbay. I need to figure out how to make some new labels:

[685]

PA plugins(new Apple Silicon versions) are working from the limited testing I have done. Though, I have a lot of them but mainly use/tested the BX and SPL plugins from the line. Ran well on an HDX system with the HD I/0's connected as well as my own native setup with the Apollo X8p/Twin X.
I was looking at Carbon at one point and decided to go with the Apollos after watching Matt Hepworth's Carbon vs Apollo video on Youtube. I also figured I could use the Macbookpro, Twin X, and UAD plugins to simulate my actually hardware which I'm on the go. So far so good.


How do you like your Alpha-Link?

[noah330]

Originally Posted by 685

How do you like your Alpha-Link?

Thanks! I like the Alpha-Link. It's always a PITA to configure it, but once it's setup it's great.

I bought this one used and have been using it to send audio to/from my console for about eight years and haven't had any issues. The SSL to MADI box and the Alpha Link got me 24 ins/outs to ProTools for about $700 so I can't complain.