Super Audio CD

[outfit]

Is Super Audio CD different than DVDA?

Anyone have experience bouncing from PT to Super Audio CD? Is there any difference than a normal bounce? does it have to be encoded?

[carlone]

Is Super Audio CD different than DVDA?

Anyone have experience bouncing from PT to Super Audio CD? Is there any difference than a normal bounce? does it have to be encoded?

SACD and DVDA are 2 totally different formats - currently only SACD players can play SACD disks and most SACD players will not play DVDA disks.

There are only a couple of systems out there that can make an SACD DVD - I think Sadie makes a DSD model that can create SACD DVD's while the other is some expensive Sony system (can't think of the name).

As far as pro tools is concerned, you just bring stems (either stereo or 5.1 - up to 96k/24 bit)

[froyo]

Hello. Outfit, SACD uses a technology called DSD, which is different from CD's and DVD's underlyin audio technology PCM. As such you can not bounce to DSD from PT or viceversa. Sadie does make a DSD workstation, Genex has a DSD recorder, Sony does have a workstation, Merging Technologies have DSD cards and software. Basically the only way to go from one to the other, as far as I know, is to make analog transfers. If you want to make SACD recordings it will take quite an investment and a substantial learning curve.

[techdude]

We brought 5.1 mixes as PT files to our only SACD mastering session. There is no direct conversion from PCM to DSD. It is funny that they had to be D/A converted and re-A/D converted into the Sonoma system for mastering. In my pre-mastering talks with people doing SACD all the time, many said that content was often brought in on 1" and 2" 8 track analog formats!?! Analog will be the savior of digital yet!

The REAL funny thing about the session was that we could not walk out with a reference SACD to check the mastering- they have to be manufactured, and it would take weeks. So approval had to be given without actually listening to the final format- we were offered a DVDA, yes the competing medium, as our take-away reference format.

We used the Pioneer DV-563 A with a 6ch bumpbox for our player. Extended SACD listening tended to give people headaches, whereas DVDA did not.
miked

[outfit]

"There is no direct conversion from PCM to DSD"

So it appears that there is no difference in Pro Tools Work flow. Its just a matter of differences in how the output from PT is handled.

All the reading I have been doing says nothing about DSD being higher bit capable. Is that because DSD removes the entire sample rate , bit depth question from the equation?

[toddro]

Once you go PCM, does that render the "advantages" of DSD obsolete? I know the SACD releases I have done have been all analog up to the point of mixing where it went through DSD (Meitner) conversion to a Genex. It seems like if you record PCM and then mix out analog to a DSD conversion, your signal has still been "PCM'd" for lack of a better term.

-TR

[auxsend1]

That's true, but the 2mix off a console going to DSD is still better than printing back into Pro Tools and dithering down to Redbook CD audio. Even if the source files are just 24 bit 44.1 kHz, you still capture more of the original sound.

As a mixing medium, DSD isn't there yet. The whole world is PCM. But as a mixDOWN medium, I think it's perfect. Record in high quality PCM, run all your plugins, etc., then convert the 2mix off the console to DSD and also to PT. Release a hybrid SACD w/ CD audio and SACD audio all in one!

[clorox]

All the reading I have been doing says nothing about DSD being higher bit capable. Is that because DSD removes the entire sample rate , bit depth question from the equation?

My understanding of it, from a friend of mine who works for Sadie, is that you are correct.

DSD's algorithm for digitally representing sound waves is ENTIRELY different than PCM.

Geek out coming. If this is wrong, feel free to correct:
All digital sound is 1's and 0's.

The PCM (Pulse Code Modulation) model is by far the standard most of us are familiar with. PCM uses it's 1's and 0's to draw a series of rectangles similar to a bar graph which approximates a sound wave. Bit depth is how fine the rectangles can be chopped on the vertical access, and bit rate is how many rectangles you get to squeeze into a certain time frame. As I'm sure we're all aware, a regular CD uses 44100 rectangles/sec to store it's sound, and each rectangle height can be represented by a 16bit number (for about 65000 possible height values.)

DSD uses its 1's and 0's quite differently. Instead of grouping the bits into 24bit or 16bit rectangles, it draws the waveform like an etch-a-sketch. It represents the 1's and 0's as a constant stream. When it sees a 1, the wave goes up a little; when it sees a zero, the wave goes down a little. Using this 'etch-a-sketch' algorithm, it comes the closest to the exact reproduction of a sound wave possible (to the tune of being able to alter the wave 2.88 million times/sec).

Please, no discussion on whether or not it's important to capture that level of detail, the merits of Nyquist and the vagueries of good filter design. That's a holy war.

"There is no direct conversion from PCM to DSD"

Anyhow, I thought the Sadie Series 5 software could handle both PCM and DSD formats. I'm surprised that it wouldn't be be able to convert between the two, if that is indeed the case. But I've never actually used Sadie, just sat in on a few demos. Might be good to ask them, tho.

[RAustin]

Ive actually done 3 SACD titles from PT files. Each was captured for Surround at 48/24, as 96 and up wasnt ready yet when we did. We took the finished 6 channel mixes to Airshow Mastering in Boulder, and they created the titles. I have to say, they sound amazing on SACD playback. And yes, he can go direct PCM to DSD. The discs have a 6 channel SACD layer, 2 channel SACD layer, and Red Book layer. One of the major bonuses from a mix point of view is that the mixes on SACD dont get lossy encoded, i.e. Dolby Digital or even DTS. Playback is pure 24 bit/48k, even though the upconvert makes it DSD. He did master the disc in the Sony Sonoma, and it retains all the punch, top and bottom of the original tracking session. We were then sent 96kHz 'downconverted' PCM files to check on my HD rig......rocks !...Highly recommended....

[auxsend1]

Just to clarify, it's 2 layers, an SACD and a CD layer. The SACD layer has 2 parts, one being 6-ch the other 2-ch. And yes, it is quite ingenious. The hybrid possibility of SACD makes it the clear choice for what should supplant the current CD. I guess we'll see what happens....