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  #1  
Old 06-13-1998, 04:09 AM
Oliver M Oliver M is offline
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Default What write speed?

In one of Digidesign’s PDF documents I read:
Digidesign's Requirements for Professional Disc Creation:
For Duplication-Master or Professional Reference Disc Production use 2x or 4x real-time write speed.
But most of the people (professionals) are telling me that 1x real-time write speed is best for Professional Reference Disc Production.
What’s true?
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  #2  
Old 06-18-1998, 03:07 AM
Marcus Marcus is offline
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Default Re: What write speed?

I've heard the same things. Bob Katz at:
http://www.digido.com/
recommends 1x speed for PMCDs etc. saying that, while there are fewer correctable errors on a disc that has been recorded at a faster speed, there is more jitter - leading to audio degradation such as loss of stereo imaging, graininess at low volume etc.
I think I would take his word for this but I'm fukt if I can hear any differences. Can you?

Marcus
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  #3  
Old 06-18-1998, 05:25 AM
Oliver M Oliver M is offline
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Default Re: What write speed?

Well Marcus, I cannot hear any difference!
I usually use 1x speed, of course I would prefer to use 4x but I am really uncertain by now.
Thanks for your respond tho!

Any other comments? Digi???
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  #4  
Old 06-18-1998, 08:31 AM
joules joules is offline
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Default Re: What write speed?

Without the nescessary test and measurement eqipment I cant argue with what Bob says, however bearing in mind that all CDR's are re-clocked when transfered to glass master at the duplication plant it is of little relevence when concerning the production master.

I have tried on various occasions to see if I can hear the difference between CD's recorded at various speeds, and these attempts have been in critical listening enviroments, but as yet there have been no results worth talking about.The main diference was between type of disk.

From a professionals point of veiw its much better to have reason to record at 1X because that way the three or four master CD's produced for the client will earn about five hours of top rate studio time which can in certain cases make $2-300 difference in the studios earnings, not to mention the mastering engineers hourly rate!

Recent advances in DAW productivity have cut the time spent in the mastering studio by a significant amount, no longer do you have to transfer the audio here there and evrywhere during the process, as integration of components has streamlined the process. Thus the mastering facilities find themselves investing heavily in new systems only to find out that the time spent on each project is halved, and therefore revenue is also halved, the obvious option of banging up the hourly rate is very dificult to implement when dealing in a competitive market, so dont be suprised to hear of old wives tales when it comes to mastering, in order to preserve the time spent in the studio. Im thinking of telling my clients that you have to wait an hour between processing for the digital data to stbalise on the hard disk therfore reducing jitter and the 3D imaging of the trombone solo in the third song!

Could I smell a scam here?

Controversial as ever

Joules
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  #5  
Old 06-19-1998, 10:08 PM
danisrael danisrael is offline
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Default Re: What write speed?

I master at MasterMix in Nashville. They cut PMCDs at 1x (they charge a flat rate for the parts, so it is to their advantage to cut at 2x).

I have also replicated product from CDs burned in my studio at both 1x and 2x. I have never been able to tell the difference. Additionally, I have never had a problem at the replication plant with 32 errors from the discs burned at either speed. Nor, have I ever had product returned for a defect.

I have had client reports of problems with high-end CD players not playing one-offs I've made. I usually burn one-offs at 2x. I can't tell you if it is a media problem, burner, or what.

Regarding errors: Make an image file first, then burn (1x if your burner is older, 2x if it is less than a year old)

Regarding quality (jitter): I would personally be more concerned with the stability of the clocks in consumer walkmans running on AA batteries! (Still, the FAA believes you can bring a jetliner to it's knees with 2 AAs)

Remember, Macarena would not have sold anymore copies burned at 1x or 2x.
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  #6  
Old 06-20-1998, 01:13 AM
Oliver M Oliver M is offline
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Default Re: What write speed?

To me it’s not a matter of costs. I charge the same, no matter what write speed I use. I want to satisfy my clients (radio stations) and wanna be satisfied myself -I just want to do it right. I can’t tell the difference between 1,2 or 4x speed but I am really confused about that write speed issue. BTW, I use a Yamaha 400t.
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  #7  
Old 06-20-1998, 01:24 AM
Oliver M Oliver M is offline
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Default Re: What write speed?

Adding to the above, I make reference disc productions for my own music productions as well.
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  #8  
Old 06-20-1998, 10:25 AM
joules joules is offline
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Default Re: What write speed?

Peronally for me it depends on the size of run, If its just the standard 3CD (master, safety, and listening copy) run I'll burn at 2X as writing the image file actually takes longer, if the run involves more CD's then I'll burn from an Image file at 4X. I have a vey fast clean setup,and the CDR400 has a 2MB cache, so the image file is not so important as on the slower systems.

Untill somone comes out with some REAL reason for burning at a specific speed then I shall continue to use the most convenient speed. Clock dither is not an issue on the production masters as I said before the CDR is re-clocked at the duplication plant when the glass master is created.

At present nobody whose opinion I respect has been able to hear any diference between CD's created on the same media at diferent speeds.

I stand to be corrected, but I seem to detect the introduction of "old wives tales" here on a subject that there is no definate answer to as yet, by people wishing to make themselves sound authauritive.

I have, as a mid market mastering facility, produced many master CD's at various speeds and they all sound great on the final silver disks, I've even compared them to the MLCD sessions direct from the DAW and heard no diference when passing them through the same converters, The only time I was dissatishfied was when instead of using the usual EMI (Holland) or SONY DADC (Austria) plants a client used a cheaper duplication plant in Spain, that was a big suprise to me!

I get 90% of my work from client satisfaction, as there are many studios with Pro Tools a room and some Assistant coffe maker, claiming to offer CD mastering. My buisness is soley editing and CD premastering.so the quality of the final reult is the main priority for me.

In my opinion (there are always exceptions) the best results are obtained from 'By the hour" facilities, as the package deal can be rushed when things start to be more dificult than expected. To say I can master any CD in one day is rediculous unless you already know the material.
Most serious comercial facilities charge by the hour, unless you are working on some kind of "dead time deal"


TTFN

Joules
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  #9  
Old 06-20-1998, 10:31 AM
joules joules is offline
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Default Re: What write speed?

Whats clock dither??¿??¿¿¿
I think it was supposed to be jitter

That'll teach me to type and eat simultaneously at 4X speed
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  #10  
Old 06-23-1998, 03:28 AM
Disco_Doctor Disco_Doctor is offline
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Default Re: What write speed?

For what it's worth, most "serious mastering facilities" that charge by the hour do, in fact, finish the job in one day - on all of the mastering sessions I've attended anyway...as far as jitter goes, rent some Apogee converters, a nice fat Manley tube amplifier, and a pair of B&W 801's, and you will (if you know what to listen for - hint: top end) hear the difference. As Joules already mentioned, a good duplication facility will reclock the AES data when making a glass master, but the jitter of a CD burned at 4x will still transfer with small but noticeable differences in the sound. Very subtle, but there. Probably not an audible issue if you are producing rock and hip-hop, but definitely an issue (in my opinion) if you are producing live to digital 2 track symphony, jaz, and choir recordings. I burn at 1x and have never had any discs rejected due to excessive errors.
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