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  #1  
Old 12-21-2011, 10:25 PM
dterry dterry is offline
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Default Notation/Score editor unusable with large scoring templates

In addition to the midi functions/tempo editing slowdown with PT10 and large midi track counts, the score editor/notation display is even worse than PT9 (it's always been very slow to open).

Here are the issues I am seeing - any other composers using large midi templates, your input would be most appreciated:

1 - Since PT8, the notation display has been slow to open with large midi track counts - apparently PT scans every single midi track before opening even a single clip in the editor. If opening from the track window, right click to the editor directly, PT selects and displays every single track in the project - a mess of black lines in the score editor.

2 - In PT10 opening the notation display now locks up PT - it will display every track's staff layered on top of the others; but I now have to reboot the system to recover.

Basically, the score editor/transfer to Sibelius is completely unusable in PT10 with my typical, 200+ midi track scoring template. Very bad.

3 - Tempo editing is painfully slow with larger track counts, but I've found that this only applies when the midi tracks are in ticks mode. Switching to sample mode solves it. This works for a lot of film work I do as I'm free-forming my cue outlines before tempo mapping anyway. But it won't work for everything, or everyone.

Any other experiences? I'm interested to see if these are Windows only issues (I know #3 is).

Any OSX users having any issues with large templates in PT10?

This needs to be resolved very soon for me to stick with PT; and switching back to another DAW is time consuming and problematic in the midst of long term projects, or multiple projects for a single client. I would prefer to stick with PT.

Avid knows about the tempo editing/midi function slowdown in PT10 on Win, but the score editor problem has been there since 8/9, and I'm concerned that neither issue will ever be addressed unless a lot of pro composers voice their concerns. Hence this thread.

Thanks.
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  #2  
Old 12-22-2011, 04:30 AM
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panamajack panamajack is offline
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Default Re: Notation/Score editor unusable with large scoring templates

Can you fill me in as to how you are utilizing the Pro Tools MIDI tracks? Are your tracks linked to another machine running VEP? Or are you using RTAS, like Structure, or other in-the-box VIs?

Also, are you using Sibelius as your primary score editor?

I am more familiar with the MIDI functions within Logic, but did play around with the full version of Structure running under PT8LE. I got it to play a movement of Mozart's Symphony 40 on a Nehalem quad 2.66, which was stable loaded with the included East-West orchestral samples. Never tried MIDI on such a large scale as yours on a PT Win7 machine, but I do have an HD2 PT8HD setup (also been playing around with the PT10HD demo) that works well for audio, for tracking and mixing.

I had to manually assign the correct clefs for the aforementioned Structure-driven Mozart file, because PT defaulted to all grand clefs, which made the score page unreadable.

Sounds like you are experiencing an issue with your graphics driver, if not inadequate CPU resources, or something running in the background that is sucking up your CPU cache.
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  #3  
Old 12-22-2011, 09:53 AM
dterry dterry is offline
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Default Re: Notation/Score editor unusable with large scoring templates

I don't think it's a graphics card issue or cpu as I've tested this with nothing else running, and low/no cpu load in PT - just a large number of midi tracks, and the problem scales depending on how many tracks are in the session.

(in my normal setup, I have VEPro running outside of PT on the host system, as well as slave systems feeding back into PT (hardwired). Midi Over Lan to the slaves. It works very well - incredibly happy with the setup other than these two (rather major) issues.)

I've tested these issues without VEPro running and without external slave inputs - just a blank PT session with 200+ midi tracks just to rule out other factors. Cpu usage is almost non-existent in the test project since they are just blank midi tracks, one clip to test opening in the notation editor. Same result - and it has been this way since 8, except in 8/9 I could just deselect all of the tracks in the track list and the notation display would display correctly. It's defaulting to selecting every single track/clip when opening from the track window. When opening from within the key editor, it only uses that midi clip, but takes forever (PT9), but in 10, it locks up PT.

Fyi - for the notation display as in your Mozart session, you do have to setup the cleff/staff view for each track - that's not included in a midi file, and if you created the session, midi track notation display settings always default to treble clef until you setup the the display parameters for it.

That part works fine here, it's just how PT handles a large number of midi tracks - it's trying to scan everything (and very inefficiently apparently) - it shouldn't. This never happened when I used Nuendo, or Logic back in the day.
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Old 12-23-2011, 09:32 AM
dterry dterry is offline
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Default Re: Notation/Score editor unusable with large scoring templates

Bumpt for not wanting to see this disappear and lapse into versions 11, 12, etc.

Sibelius/notation integration is a great concept, and works on a rather small, limited scale, but can not be used in a typical film scoring setup which is where it is needed most.

PLEASE, Avid, professional composers like me really want/need to have this work!

Other composers, please voice your opinions here. Thanks!
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  #5  
Old 12-23-2011, 05:15 PM
dterry dterry is offline
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Default Re: Notation/Score editor unusable with large scoring templates

Here is the Ideascale bug entry I submitted 7 months ago.

This bug has been around since the introduction of the score editor/Sibelius integration, and seems to be getting worse.

If there are other pro composers in LA/elsewhere using this successfully with large templates, I would love to hear from you (pm is fine).
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  #6  
Old 01-06-2012, 06:30 AM
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panamajack panamajack is offline
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Default Re: Notation/Score editor unusable with large scoring templates

Quote:
Originally Posted by dterry View Post
...Sibelius [PT8+] notation integration is a great concept, and works on a rather small, limited scale, but cannot be used in a typical film scoring setup -- which is where it is needed most...
The score feature added in PT8 is what re-ignited my interest. I am considering buying the cross-grade from Finale to Sibelius, but I wonder if you might be more specific when you state "small, limited scale."

I will be hardwiring a Win7 64 SP1 machine with PT10HD to another stand-alone Win7 64 SP1 machine running Kontakt 5.01. In that config, Kontakt supports 64 independent MIDI channels (four MIDI ports). I do not envision the 200 MIDI tracks situation you have encountered, but a ceiling is still a ceiling and it would be good to know about it.

I have two other systems running Logic, and one of those is hardwired and synced to a PC...with an archaic Gigastudio setup running under WinXP SP3. I am trying to ditch that, as GS3 is no longer supported. I am aware of VEP, but already have all the syncs, master clocks, ADAT ports, cables, etc., to do the necessary multi-computer hardware connections. HDX is not an option for me at this time, as I am skeptical of the one super-computer running DAWs and samplers in a virtual rewiring setup. But it does appear to be very popular with others possessing $30,000 or more to invest and who are either not concerned with it ever failing, or can afford two or more similar setups in the event of a melt-down.
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  #7  
Old 01-06-2012, 07:48 PM
dterry dterry is offline
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Default Re: Notation/Score editor unusable with large scoring templates

Quote:
Originally Posted by panamajack View Post
The score feature added in PT8 is what re-ignited my interest. I am considering buying the cross-grade from Finale to Sibelius, but I wonder if you might be more specific when you state "small, limited scale."
The problem scales with the number of tracks. Opening the score editor takes longer the more tracks you have in the project, even if you only attempt to open one clip. With over 200 tracks in my template, it would open in PT9, but would take a long time. In PT10, it simply locks up PT, so it seems to be worse in 10 than 9. With only a few tracks, it works fine - I wish it did for any number of tracks, and I wish the score editor would only open the selected clip(s) as that might solve part of the problem.


Quote:
I do not envision the 200 MIDI tracks situation you have encountered, but a ceiling is still a ceiling and it would be good to know about it.
I wish there was a threshold, but this, and the tempo editing/record enable bugs both scale with track count (unfortunately, they both seem related in how PT accesses tracks, hence the problem appears to be expanding significantly with this release, rather than improving - hence my comment in the other thread).

You might not have any issues in a project with a dozen or two tracks, but even 50-100 can become problematic (I don't know how this scales with cpu power - a fast i7 might handle it better than my quad, or it might be completely unrelated). It reaches unusable status getting closer to 200 and beyond.

Quote:
HDX is not an option for me at this time, as I am skeptical of the one super-computer running DAWs and samplers in a virtual rewiring setup. But it does appear to be very popular with others possessing $30,000 or more to invest and who are either not concerned with it ever failing, or can afford two or more similar setups in the event of a melt-down.
I completely agree with your thinking. The one-computer option is too risky for me as well - if that one system went down, I would lose business quickly - just losing one of several slaves can cost valuable time. In addition, splitting among two or more systems will spread the processing/disk load better, and you have a backup of sorts, depending on how the two are used/configured.
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  #8  
Old 01-07-2012, 03:03 AM
DarylG DarylG is offline
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Default Re: Notation/Score editor unusable with large scoring templates

Sorry to interrupt this discussion, but are any of you guys using the new RAM cache feature? I thought that one of the points of this was specifically to make sessions run more snappily (is that a word?)? Is notation excluded from the cache? If so, then maybe Avid could explain why.

D
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  #9  
Old 01-07-2012, 06:23 AM
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panamajack panamajack is offline
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Default Re: Notation/Score editor unusable with large scoring templates

DarylG:
..are any of you guys using the new RAM cache feature? I thought that one of the points of this was specifically to make sessions run more snappily (is that a word?)?

..to snappily run...
...running snappily...
...you think I'm snappy? How am I snappy? You sayin' I'm a snappy guy?


Why yes, I would have to say, split infinitives aside, that snappily is the adverb derivative of the adjective snappy.

One of my HD systems has 10 GB of memory, and I have 3 GB of 5 GB available set aside for the cache. But the cache is for the timeline, and it sounds like the issue is the process of loading 200 or so MIDI tracks into the score editor. I have not yet encountered this issue, as I am still just setting up a PT10HD system.

The OP is unable to work with a specific template that has the high number of MIDI tracks. He is using a combination of virtual and external slave computers linked to a master PT system. So the question is: in spite of PT having a theoretical maximum number of MIDI tracks, when does the reality check kick in, making the time lag so great as to make "more than" a certain number of MIDI tracks unusable.

The cause of the molasses-high-track-MIDI effect is in question.
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  #10  
Old 01-07-2012, 06:33 AM
DarylG DarylG is offline
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Default Re: Notation/Score editor unusable with large scoring templates

I see. Thanks for that snappy reply.

Maybe it is a bug, but it would seem to me that the score editor would be an ideal candidate for including in some sort of RAM cache, so I'm wondering why Avid chose not to do that. Maybe because the core clientèle of Pro Tools don't use it?

D
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