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  #21  
Old 02-15-2015, 03:59 PM
Park Seward's Avatar
Park Seward Park Seward is offline
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Default Re: Does PT12 bring value

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Denton View Post
So, how would you calculate how many hammers you would have to replace in "X" years if you had no way of knowing how log "X" is? How would you calculate the "warranty return percentages" over an unknown period of time? How would you know how much of a "reserve" amount was needed? And what if you had received some bad information from your accountants, and had not been keeping any reserves at all?
Bill,

From what I have been able to read and listen to their accounting videos, it seems they were concerned with software releases and not warranty issues. They explained that since the software was active and the company was supplying bug fixes, they should spread the revenue over the time the software version was active and the customer was being supplied with updates and not book the entire revenue when the software was sold.

I think this is what all the past accounting issues were about and why they had so much work to do. They wanted to spread out the revenue from past sales.

And now with paid updates, they can book the total revenue of the sale when it occurs since we will pay for the updates. They don't need to hold much back.

At least this is what I have been able to understand.
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  #22  
Old 02-15-2015, 04:31 PM
lexaudio lexaudio is offline
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Default Re: Does PT12 bring value

Quote:
Originally Posted by Park Seward View Post
Bill,

From what I have been able to read and listen to their accounting videos, it seems they were concerned with software releases and not warranty issues. They explained that since the software was active and the company was supplying bug fixes, they should spread the revenue over the time the software version was active and the customer was being supplied with updates and not book the entire revenue when the software was sold.

I think this is what all the past accounting issues were about and why they had so much work to do. They wanted to spread out the revenue from past sales.

And now with paid updates, they can book the total revenue of the sale when it occurs since we will pay for the updates. They don't need to hold much back.

At least this is what I have been able to understand.
Nice info. And I can understand their need for it. What has me eerked, is the lapse policy and fact you have to repurchase the software.

It's a MAJOR penalty for not staying with their upgrade path when THEY want it.
We IN this business know how it can go up and down. Unforeseen things happen, and for users high and low, that can mean a lot when you have a dead computer.
If all you can do is afford a new computer at that time, AVID screws you for that.
Without the computer the software means NOTHING.

AVID would have a far happier camp of base users, users that would stick around and continue to update when its within their financial means, and time frame.

AVID is shooting themselves in the foot with this "FORCED ANNUAL" policy.

I've just been testing PT 11.3 and am liking it. Solved some crashing issues (related to memory) and has been pretty stable so far.
No video tests though.
I haven't tracked or done a top down mix with it yet, so its a shame that AVID would want to push away customers for accounting needs and bottom line.

They will get the die hards, that will pay annually. But from a business POV, if those 20 percent were always a given, and then let's say 30 percent were maybe first year but, 25 percent didn't continue, and 50 percent were not going to do it.

AVID loses 50 percent from the start. They keep 50 percent the first year, then lose 25 percent the following.
That's a 75 percent loss.

While the first year might look "good on paper", it's steady decline will show how flawed the policy is. And AVID will be right back where they started.
Except, a large majority of their users will be gone.

AVID should lose the lapse/never can upgrade on that license. That is turning away half their user base. Audio and Video.

Then offer something more reasonable that not only keeps the users happy, but gives them options so they don't have to turn to another DAW or video editor.

Not everyone will use support, or even need it. But maybe some want it.
I don't need AVID support like many here.

AVID should have a tiered plan.
No support upgrade. Vanilla/HD - support calls/emails can be case by case basis.
Support upgrade. Vanilla/HD - get the support that is currently offered in their existing Plan.
After 12 months, if the user felt the support wasn't really worth it, don't penalize them for it. Let them upgrade should they choose to.

Updates/upgrades. Updates, that fix bugs for bad testing and programming should be offered to all users who have paid for said upgrade.
Upgrades. Users on a support plan get the upgrade with their support plan.
Users not on the support plan, will have to pay (a reasonable price) for said upgrade.
If AVID releases a new upgrade every 3 months, it shouldn't cost more than a support plan to upgrade.
Upgrades have to be worth it. If it is one new feature every 3 months, then its a scam.

First and foremost, the software has to work. You can keep paying for upgrades and it is still a problem.

Does 12 bring Value? Currently? No. Not with how AVID has setup the support policy. AVID could be smarter, long at it from a longer time frame rather than a year and see how much better it would be if they don't lose half their users or more.

There is a happy place AVID can settle into that the user base will feel better about. Its a question of whether AVID is smart enough to see the long game as they are only playing the short game right now.
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  #23  
Old 02-15-2015, 05:31 PM
Bill Denton Bill Denton is offline
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Default Re: Does PT12 bring value

Quote:
Originally Posted by Park Seward View Post
Bill,

From what I have been able to read and listen to their accounting videos, it seems they were concerned with software releases and not warranty issues. They explained that since the software was active and the company was supplying bug fixes, they should spread the revenue over the time the software version was active and the customer was being supplied with updates and not book the entire revenue when the software was sold.

I think this is what all the past accounting issues were about and why they had so much work to do. They wanted to spread out the revenue from past sales.

And now with paid updates, they can book the total revenue of the sale when it occurs since we will pay for the updates. They don't need to hold much back.

At least this is what I have been able to understand.
In my opinion, that is correct...it's also what I have been saying over and over...it has to do with revenue-recognition over an unknown period of time due to the de facto open-ended support contracts that existed.

The critical issue was the open-ended service contracts...that is why Avid is moving to the "service plan" model...they are then dealing only with defined one-year fixed-term service contracts, which simplifies the revenue-recognition.

I used the "hammer" model in an attempt to explain complicated concepts to folks who have no familiarity with corporate finance/accounting.

I commend you for doing what I have been urging people to do, you researched the issue, found the facts, and now have a sound basis for understanding what Avid is doing...good job, Park!
__________________
X
Note that all opinions, observations, whatever, in this post are mine, unless I'm being mean or am wrong, in which case it's somebody else's fault. I do not work for Avid (their loss)...my only relationship with Avid is that of a customer (when I'm not too poor to buy stuff, like now)...and that hot administrative assistant...that's more of a "thing" than a "relationship" (that should keep them guessing for a while...)

Just rockin'...what more is there?

Bill in Pittsburgh
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  #24  
Old 02-15-2015, 05:59 PM
Bill Denton Bill Denton is offline
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Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Pittsburgh PA
Posts: 2,644
Default Re: Does PT12 bring value

Quote:
Originally Posted by lexaudio View Post
Nice info. And I can understand their need for it. What has me eerked, is the lapse policy and fact you have to repurchase the software.

It's a MAJOR penalty for not staying with their upgrade path when THEY want it.
We IN this business know how it can go up and down. Unforeseen things happen, and for users high and low, that can mean a lot when you have a dead computer.
If all you can do is afford a new computer at that time, AVID screws you for that.
Without the computer the software means NOTHING.

AVID would have a far happier camp of base users, users that would stick around and continue to update when its within their financial means, and time frame.

AVID is shooting themselves in the foot with this "FORCED ANNUAL" policy.

I've just been testing PT 11.3 and am liking it. Solved some crashing issues (related to memory) and has been pretty stable so far.
No video tests though.
I haven't tracked or done a top down mix with it yet, so its a shame that AVID would want to push away customers for accounting needs and bottom line.

They will get the die hards, that will pay annually. But from a business POV, if those 20 percent were always a given, and then let's say 30 percent were maybe first year but, 25 percent didn't continue, and 50 percent were not going to do it.

AVID loses 50 percent from the start. They keep 50 percent the first year, then lose 25 percent the following.
That's a 75 percent loss.

While the first year might look "good on paper", it's steady decline will show how flawed the policy is. And AVID will be right back where they started.
Except, a large majority of their users will be gone.

AVID should lose the lapse/never can upgrade on that license. That is turning away half their user base. Audio and Video.

Then offer something more reasonable that not only keeps the users happy, but gives them options so they don't have to turn to another DAW or video editor.

Not everyone will use support, or even need it. But maybe some want it.
I don't need AVID support like many here.

AVID should have a tiered plan.
No support upgrade. Vanilla/HD - support calls/emails can be case by case basis.
Support upgrade. Vanilla/HD - get the support that is currently offered in their existing Plan.
After 12 months, if the user felt the support wasn't really worth it, don't penalize them for it. Let them upgrade should they choose to.

Updates/upgrades. Updates, that fix bugs for bad testing and programming should be offered to all users who have paid for said upgrade.
Upgrades. Users on a support plan get the upgrade with their support plan.
Users not on the support plan, will have to pay (a reasonable price) for said upgrade.
If AVID releases a new upgrade every 3 months, it shouldn't cost more than a support plan to upgrade.
Upgrades have to be worth it. If it is one new feature every 3 months, then its a scam.

First and foremost, the software has to work. You can keep paying for upgrades and it is still a problem.

Does 12 bring Value? Currently? No. Not with how AVID has setup the support policy. AVID could be smarter, long at it from a longer time frame rather than a year and see how much better it would be if they don't lose half their users or more.

There is a happy place AVID can settle into that the user base will feel better about. Its a question of whether AVID is smart enough to see the long game as they are only playing the short game right now.
When a service plan ends, it must end completely to comply with the accounting requirements.

If someone renews their service plan prior to expiration, there is no period during which a service contract is not in effect.

If Avid allows a service plan to be renewed after it has expired, the original contract did not end due to the continuum that has been created.

In order to meet the accounting requirements, when a service plan expires, it must completely end...a post-expiration renewal does not meet those requirements...
__________________
X
Note that all opinions, observations, whatever, in this post are mine, unless I'm being mean or am wrong, in which case it's somebody else's fault. I do not work for Avid (their loss)...my only relationship with Avid is that of a customer (when I'm not too poor to buy stuff, like now)...and that hot administrative assistant...that's more of a "thing" than a "relationship" (that should keep them guessing for a while...)

Just rockin'...what more is there?

Bill in Pittsburgh
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  #25  
Old 02-15-2015, 06:41 PM
lexaudio lexaudio is offline
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: LA
Posts: 1,034
Default Re: Does PT12 bring value

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Denton View Post
When a service plan ends, it must end completely to comply with the accounting requirements.

If someone renews their service plan prior to expiration, there is no period during which a service contract is not in effect.

If Avid allows a service plan to be renewed after it has expired, the original contract did not end due to the continuum that has been created.

In order to meet the accounting requirements, when a service plan expires, it must completely end...a post-expiration renewal does not meet those requirements...
Ergo, the whole problem. You are in such defense of AVID, you might as well have your whole head up their butt.

Again, as stated. AVID is basically crowd funding here. The service plan is not a service. It is snake oil.
There is probably 5-7 percent of the users who would only ever even use it.

Honestly, I think a lot of us are trying to save AVID from itself.

They are trying to model themselves off of Adobe and MS. Problem is, there are more MS and Adobe users on the west coast then there are in the entire AVID user base, including video.

Audio/Video is a niche market. And high end is even smaller.

I can bet there are more MS office users in LA then there are in the entire USA of AVID users.

AVID's trying to be what they aren't. Accounting or not. They are screwing themselves royal.
You are as bad as they are defending it.

Your an IT guy, professional accountant, and audio professional? Or are you just someone who has too much time on their hands, things they know they industry and can express expertly what and how things go?

Seriously. At some point, you would think you would get that people don't care about AVID's accounting, profit margin to make shareholders happy, ect.

We, the users, see the writing on the wall. The users are getting screwed.

I wouldn't be surprised if they release buggy software "on purpose", to make the "support plan" look more attractive.
And there is always some one who inside who will leak that information eventually.

What AVID is offering is nothing WE the user wants. The real users. Not the bedroom/weekend warrior user with a $200 interface and vanilla.

So what is the reason you are "really" defending AVID? Because at the end of the day, week, month or year it really doesn't matter to you.

You are just someone with no experience in pro audio/video who happens to own a single copy of pro tools vanilla.
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  #26  
Old 02-15-2015, 07:31 PM
Bill Denton Bill Denton is offline
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Default Re: Does PT12 bring value

Quote:
Originally Posted by lexaudio View Post
Ergo, the whole problem. You are in such defense of AVID, you might as well have your whole head up their butt.

Again, as stated. AVID is basically crowd funding here. The service plan is not a service. It is snake oil.
There is probably 5-7 percent of the users who would only ever even use it.

Honestly, I think a lot of us are trying to save AVID from itself.

They are trying to model themselves off of Adobe and MS. Problem is, there are more MS and Adobe users on the west coast then there are in the entire AVID user base, including video.

Audio/Video is a niche market. And high end is even smaller.

I can bet there are more MS office users in LA then there are in the entire USA of AVID users.

AVID's trying to be what they aren't. Accounting or not. They are screwing themselves royal.
You are as bad as they are defending it.

Your an IT guy, professional accountant, and audio professional? Or are you just someone who has too much time on their hands, things they know they industry and can express expertly what and how things go?

Seriously. At some point, you would think you would get that people don't care about AVID's accounting, profit margin to make shareholders happy, ect.

We, the users, see the writing on the wall. The users are getting screwed.

I wouldn't be surprised if they release buggy software "on purpose", to make the "support plan" look more attractive.
And there is always some one who inside who will leak that information eventually.

What AVID is offering is nothing WE the user wants. The real users. Not the bedroom/weekend warrior user with a $200 interface and vanilla.
*
So what is the reason you are "really" defending AVID? Because at the end of the day, week, month or year it really doesn't matter to you.

You are just someone with no experience in pro audio/video who happens to own a single copy of pro tools vanilla.
Your an IT guy, professional accountant, and audio professional?

Let's see...
  • I have worked as a programmer/analyst/system architect for 26 years. I've also purchased a lot of hardware, software, and network equipment. I've bought high-end professional software that used the same "service plan" model Avid is moving to.
  • As I have often stated, I AM NOT an accountant. However I have written and modified systems for a couple of what used be called the "Big 6" accounting firms, and quite a bit of my other work has involved accounting systems...I've had to learn some accounting in order to do my job. Obviously, in order to write business systems, I have had to learn more than a little bit about business.
  • I've wired up three or four radio station control rooms...I wouldn't call myself an "audio professional", but I do know my way around some pro audio gear.
I have never either defended nor condemned what Avid is doing...I have simply explained why they are doing it.

Neither am I an Avid "fanboi"...if the damned temperature in Pittsburgh ever gets back to a reasonable level (it's -3 air/-13 wind chill) I will be back in my unheated basement studio where I am learning Cubase, which will be my primary DAW going forward. Unfortunately, space heaters don't do much good at those temperatures.

I'm still here on the DUC because some things have come up that might make it a good idea to keep my Pro Tools rig up-to-date and going.
__________________
X
Note that all opinions, observations, whatever, in this post are mine, unless I'm being mean or am wrong, in which case it's somebody else's fault. I do not work for Avid (their loss)...my only relationship with Avid is that of a customer (when I'm not too poor to buy stuff, like now)...and that hot administrative assistant...that's more of a "thing" than a "relationship" (that should keep them guessing for a while...)

Just rockin'...what more is there?

Bill in Pittsburgh
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  #27  
Old 02-15-2015, 07:41 PM
lexaudio lexaudio is offline
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: LA
Posts: 1,034
Default Re: Does PT12 bring value

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Denton View Post
Your an IT guy, professional accountant, and audio professional?

Let's see...
  • I have worked as a programmer/analyst/system architect for 26 years. I've also purchased a lot of hardware, software, and network equipment. I've bought high-end professional software that used the same "service plan" model Avid is moving to.
  • As I have often stated, I AM NOT an accountant. However I have written and modified systems for a couple of what used be called the "Big 6" accounting firms, and quite a bit of my other work has involved accounting systems...I've had to learn some accounting in order to do my job. Obviously, in order to write business systems, I have had to learn more than a little bit about business.
  • I've wired up three or four radio station control rooms...I wouldn't call myself an "audio professional", but I do know my way around some pro audio gear.
I have never either defended nor condemned what Avid is doing...I have simply explained why they are doing it.

Neither am I an Avid "fanboi"...if the damned temperature in Pittsburgh ever gets back to a reasonable level (it's -3 air/-13 wind chill) I will be back in my unheated basement studio where I am learning Cubase, which will be my primary DAW going forward. Unfortunately, space heaters don't do much good at those temperatures.

I'm still here on the DUC because some things have come up that might make it a good idea to keep my Pro Tools rig up-to-date and going.
My apology then. What AVID is doing and how you are presenting it sound and looks like are defending them.
Why they are doing it, we already know. Money, shareholders. That's it.

The CEO figures himself a MS CEO one day. LOL!

My only point then as you have revealed, is you are one of the users moving away from Pro Tools. Maybe it had nothing to do with AVID.
Maybe you wanted something with more features. Great.

While explaining AVID's motive, be a user. Tell everyone your story, your move and why. Otherwise it just sounds like justification to AVID and we should just all except it.

We shouldn't except it and we should show them with our dollars, you included. So you are either with us or you aren't.
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