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  #91  
Old 02-24-2021, 12:59 AM
Ivan Bergamo Ivan Bergamo is offline
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Default Re: Can Anyone Verify / Advise? - Plugins / Delay Compensation / Timing / Downbeat

Quote:
Originally Posted by JingleDjango View Post
Freezing tracks can take several minutes in a complex session.
Good morning JingleDjango. Unfortunately this is true, no matter of how fast CPU I had my tendency was to push it to its limit. In my all (yet not so many) music projects, I was rendering to 1x speed and sometimes even less when I use the 32x upsampling limiter. But what if we all had 64 core CPUs... we'll see in couple of years! :)

Quote:
Originally Posted by bolooki View Post
can you make multiple dummy tracks that are all corrected this way? or does each one (say kick and snare) need to have their own master fader? interesting work around...
Hi Bolooki, thanks for your interest. I will try to explain my approach and I hope Avid will not get mad and change something, because we have the hack!

To answer your question, you'll need to have a separate Bus-Master track for each Side-chain Bus you are using, but you can have one Kick dummy track. Once you repeat the process couple of times it becomes like second nature.

I uploaded screenshot showing the exact process. Please note the Sample Delay I am using, it is the pre-SC number of samples (basically just Maxim in this case) and not the total. Also all the ADC stays On for this to work. Dont forget to Enable Pre-fader send on the Bus-1.

I am using comment section to write down the values, it makes my life much easier to know what tracks are using SC and how much of Delay is set on each Bus-Master track. I can easily QC the setup during the work.

Please let me know if I missed to mention something and have a good day, all of you! :)

Edit: I am uploading the Screenshot here as well: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ble...ew?usp=sharing
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File Type: jpg 2021-02-24_9-39-13.jpg (45.9 KB, 0 views)

Last edited by Ivan Bergamo; 02-24-2021 at 01:07 PM. Reason: Too compressed uploaded image.
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  #92  
Old 02-24-2021, 02:51 PM
RTGraham RTGraham is offline
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Default Re: Can Anyone Verify / Advise? - Plugins / Delay Compensation / Timing / Downbeat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivan Bergamo View Post
Good morning JingleDjango. Unfortunately this is true, no matter of how fast CPU I had my tendency was to push it to its limit. In my all (yet not so many) music projects, I was rendering to 1x speed and sometimes even less when I use the 32x upsampling limiter. But what if we all had 64 core CPUs... we'll see in couple of years! :)



Hi Bolooki, thanks for your interest. I will try to explain my approach and I hope Avid will not get mad and change something, because we have the hack!

To answer your question, you'll need to have a separate Bus-Master track for each Side-chain Bus you are using, but you can have one Kick dummy track. Once you repeat the process couple of times it becomes like second nature.

I uploaded screenshot showing the exact process. Please note the Sample Delay I am using, it is the pre-SC number of samples (basically just Maxim in this case) and not the total. Also all the ADC stays On for this to work. Dont forget to Enable Pre-fader send on the Bus-1.

I am using comment section to write down the values, it makes my life much easier to know what tracks are using SC and how much of Delay is set on each Bus-Master track. I can easily QC the setup during the work.

Please let me know if I missed to mention something and have a good day, all of you! :)

Edit: I am uploading the Screenshot here as well: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ble...ew?usp=sharing
Wow. That's an intricate workaround.
I can imagine integrating that into my own workflow... I can also imagine how tedious and creatively distracting it might be to have to try to remember to check whether the number of samples remains correct as the session evolves and the plugin delay topology changes.
There really shouldn't be any reason that this kind of workaround would still be necessary in today's day and age. With all of the new features, bells, whistles, etc. being added to the application in an effort to attract users, it's even more frustrating to see things like this - things that feel like basic functionality - continue to be broken over an extended period of time and multiple versions.
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  #93  
Old 02-24-2021, 10:12 PM
RTGraham RTGraham is offline
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Default Re: Can Anyone Verify / Advise? - Plugins / Delay Compensation / Timing / Downbeat

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I hope you all don't mind me attempting to tag you all in one post.
You've all either mentioned that the timing problem that we've been discussing affects your own workflow, or else you've successfully recreated the issue by following the steps in my first few posts.
I've checked in again with Avid's support team, and while they've reproduced the problem and it's been logged as a bug, it's way back on the back burner in the back room of a back building behind the back yard.
In other words, it ain't about to get any attention - because as far as Avid can tell, it doesn't really affect anyone. My support case is the only currently open case related to this -
BUT -
We can get some more attention focused on this if enough of us open additional support cases. That way Avid will realize that this is not just an isolated issue affecting one user's idiosyncratic workflow. This is in fact an increasingly common way of working with audio, especially in today's world and in today's popular music genres, and the fact that we can not depend on our audio's timing not to change is exceptionally problematic on many levels.

Some of you have already mentioned that you opened support cases, but everything has most likely been closed at this point. We need to open new cases and point Avid to the relevant information and case numbers. (I've already opened a new one myself.)

To open a Support Case, you need to be signed into your account on avid.com, and then click on the "Access the Support Center (Portal)" link.
(The direct link is https://my.avid.com/sso/Salesforce - but you'll need to be signed in.)
Please mention, in your case details, that this is in reference to Bug PT-263943.
You can also mention that the case you're opening is related to existing Cases 04124276 and 03973804.

I've edited the first post in this thread to include this information as well, so that if people are finding the thread for the first time they'll know that we're actively working towards getting this noticed enough to fix. If you happen to know other Pro Tools users whom this affects, but who either haven't participated in this thread or else don't use the DUC at all, it might be useful to try to motivate them to check this out and open a case.

And - thanks so much for chiming in here on this thread, so that I know it's not just a random issue, and for helping me chase this down.
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  #94  
Old 02-25-2021, 01:29 AM
Ivan Bergamo Ivan Bergamo is offline
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Default Re: Can Anyone Verify / Advise? - Plugins / Delay Compensation / Timing / Downbeat

Quote:
Originally Posted by RTGraham View Post
Wow. That's an intricate workaround.
I can imagine integrating that into my own workflow... I can also imagine how tedious and creatively distracting it might be to have to try to remember to check whether the number of samples remains correct as the session evolves and the plugin delay topology changes.
There really shouldn't be any reason that this kind of workaround would still be necessary in today's day and age. With all of the new features, bells, whistles, etc. being added to the application in an effort to attract users, it's even more frustrating to see things like this - things that feel like basic functionality - continue to be broken over an extended period of time and multiple versions.
I could not find a better solution. It's not really a biggie once you get used to it. If you use 5 to 10 side-chains per project let's say, it takes you less than a minute to check if all are set correctly, every now and then, but most improtantly before the export. My topology is basic 3-tier system (Michael White's school), at this point - rarely I use SC on buses but you may apply the same principle. Also you become much more aware of plugin requierments. But yeah, not having to do this would bring our attention to other things!

Quote:
Originally Posted by RTGraham View Post
I hope you all don't mind me attempting to tag you all in one post.
You've all either mentioned that the timing problem that we've been discussing affects your own workflow, or else you've successfully recreated the issue by following the steps in my first few posts.
I've checked in again with Avid's support team, and while they've reproduced the problem and it's been logged as a bug, it's way back on the back burner in the back room of a back building behind the back yard.
In other words, it ain't about to get any attention - because as far as Avid can tell, it doesn't really affect anyone. My support case is the only currently open case related to this -
BUT -
We can get some more attention focused on this if enough of us open additional support cases. That way Avid will realize that this is not just an isolated issue affecting one user's idiosyncratic workflow. This is in fact an increasingly common way of working with audio, especially in today's world and in today's popular music genres, and the fact that we can not depend on our audio's timing not to change is exceptionally problematic on many levels.

Some of you have already mentioned that you opened support cases, but everything has most likely been closed at this point. We need to open new cases and point Avid to the relevant information and case numbers. (I've already opened a new one myself.)

To open a Support Case, you need to be signed into your account on avid.com, and then click on the "Access the Support Center (Portal)" link.
(The direct link is https://my.avid.com/sso/Salesforce - but you'll need to be signed in.)
Please mention, in your case details, that this is in reference to Bug PT-263943.
You can also mention that the case you're opening is related to existing Cases 04124276 and 03973804.

I've edited the first post in this thread to include this information as well, so that if people are finding the thread for the first time they'll know that we're actively working towards getting this noticed enough to fix. If you happen to know other Pro Tools users whom this affects, but who either haven't participated in this thread or else don't use the DUC at all, it might be useful to try to motivate them to check this out and open a case.

And - thanks so much for chiming in here on this thread, so that I know it's not just a random issue, and for helping me chase this down.
Thank you RTGraham for doing this! It's great news if Avid is adressing the MIDI issue like a Bug, and not like intentionally placed anti-feature . I'll check in as soon I am back to studio! Cheers to all!
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  #95  
Old 02-26-2021, 10:25 AM
hiltonius hiltonius is offline
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Default Re: Timing Problems in Plugins that Synchronize to Measure Boundaries

i have verified this behavior once again, russ, and stand with you that it is not acceptable. you should be able to run these things in real time during mix sessions and have them provide consistent, accurate, and repeatable sync, regardless of the plugin path structure.

it's not the only timing issue they have, as we've discussed before. the automation is notoriously lazy (read: imprecise) with respect to rhythm, and i can't figure out why that should be? a compressor can "look ahead" but the host software can't? what kind of sense is this?
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  #96  
Old 02-26-2021, 10:41 AM
hiltonius hiltonius is offline
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Default Re: Can Anyone Verify / Advise? - Plugins / Delay Compensation / Timing / Downbeat

new case opened. i will keep you posted as to any progress.
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  #97  
Old 03-18-2021, 08:24 PM
Chris August Chris August is offline
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Default Re: Can Anyone Verify / Advise? - Plugins / Delay Compensation / Timing / Downbeat

Just throwing my hat in the ring on this as well... I've actually had this issue with Pro Tools for years. Trying to use plugins like Movement from Output and Tremolator from SoundToys. Always had to commit the Instrument track then use the plugin. Silly. Yeah, let me just imagine what that will sound like on this...

After posting my own problem on this earlier today, I came across this thread. I have opened multiple cases of this over the last 3 or so years. Now they have a new one tonight.

Some of you might have seen my Carbon posts from when that first came out. There's a handful of things they still haven't even fixed with that. I returned it before my 30 days was up because it was so bad.

I just don't understand why Avid doesn't care about people making current pop music. Sure editing drums and tracking vocals is easier in PT, but at some point I'd rather deal with audio in Logic than all the freaking workarounds I'm having to do just to hear a time based insert on an instrument track.

Glad to hear I'm not alone, but I hate that we're even in it.
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  #98  
Old 03-19-2021, 05:41 AM
JingleDjango JingleDjango is offline
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Default Re: Can Anyone Verify / Advise? - Plugins / Delay Compensation / Timing / Downbeat

I submitted a support case today.
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  #99  
Old 03-29-2021, 12:23 PM
RobertDorn RobertDorn is offline
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Default Re: Can Anyone Verify / Advise? - Plugins / Delay Compensation / Timing / Downbeat

Hi Chris, since you had Carbon for some days, did you perhaps check if the side chain delay compensation did the trick for having time-synced plugins like tremolator, waves oneknob pumper, lfo-tool etc on instrument tracks working in sync?

I'm not sure if carbon has this side chain delay compensation like HDX. And if it does, I'm not sure if side chain delay compensation is the answer to have time-synced plugins used on instrument tracks run in time.

I found this thread after I mailed avid support and googling about it. I'm struggling with this problem for years now. All those pumper, lfo tool, effetrix etc plugins work just fine on audio tracks, but I have to commit or freeze virtual instrument plugins first to have that kind of plugins work in sync. Disabling plugin delay sort of works around it but it introduced other timing issues with the midi notes itself, I discovered.

Would be pretty great if AVID could finally address this issue.

When I first tried a session in LUNA v1.0 , I had a smile from ear to ear when I was producing music with virtual instruments and time synced inserts, just running....in time!!!
Eventually luna has whole other issues and limitations due to its short existence.

Pro Tools is my favorite daw, but this issue stays a big big workflow killer, so I really hope It'll be addressed sooner than later.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris August View Post
Just throwing my hat in the ring on this as well... I've actually had this issue with Pro Tools for years. Trying to use plugins like Movement from Output and Tremolator from SoundToys. Always had to commit the Instrument track then use the plugin. Silly. Yeah, let me just imagine what that will sound like on this...

After posting my own problem on this earlier today, I came across this thread. I have opened multiple cases of this over the last 3 or so years. Now they have a new one tonight.

Some of you might have seen my Carbon posts from when that first came out. There's a handful of things they still haven't even fixed with that. I returned it before my 30 days was up because it was so bad.

I just don't understand why Avid doesn't care about people making current pop music. Sure editing drums and tracking vocals is easier in PT, but at some point I'd rather deal with audio in Logic than all the freaking workarounds I'm having to do just to hear a time based insert on an instrument track.

Glad to hear I'm not alone, but I hate that we're even in it.
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  #100  
Old 03-31-2021, 08:39 PM
RTGraham RTGraham is offline
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Default Re: Can Anyone Verify / Advise? - Plugins / Delay Compensation / Timing / Downbeat

Thanks for chiming in, RobertDorn.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertDorn View Post
I'm not sure if carbon has this side chain delay compensation like HDX. And if it does, I'm not sure if side chain delay compensation is the answer to have time-synced plugins used on instrument tracks run in time.
Based on what we've been troubleshooting so far, sidechain delay compensation in and of itself is not the answer to having time-sync'd plugins used on instrument tracks run properly in time. It happens even without sidechain topology being actively used in the session. A couple of other users' experiments suggest that it may be related to an apparent lack of plugin delay compensation *at all* with regard to MIDI timing.
In that regard, then perhaps sidechain delay compensation is somehow related - in other words, perhaps implementing sidechain delay compensation for native systems goes hand-in-hand with implementing delay compensation for MIDI timing - but my guess would be that they're independent, since the time-sync'd plugin issue occurs both on HDX and non-HDX systems, but HDX systems are supposed to have sidechain delay compensation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertDorn View Post
I found this thread after I mailed avid support and googling about it. I'm struggling with this problem for years now. All those pumper, lfo tool, effetrix etc plugins work just fine on audio tracks, but I have to commit or freeze virtual instrument plugins first to have that kind of plugins work in sync. Disabling plugin delay sort of works around it but it introduced other timing issues with the midi notes itself, I discovered.
Sorry to burst your bubble, but actually these kinds of plugins don't work in sync on audio tracks either. If there are no latency-inducing plugins prior to the time-sync'd plugins then *maybe* they will affect the audio in a properly synchronized way - but even latency-inducing plugins in other audio paths in the session can throw it out of whack. It sounds like you've probably experienced it more while attempting to affect virtual instrument plugins because the lack of proper delay compensation for MIDI timing means that any kind of semi-sophisticated routing can throw the instrument plugins themselves out of time if there's latency elsewhere in the session.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertDorn View Post
Would be pretty great if AVID could finally address this issue.
Absolutely. It's long overdue at this point, and only one of several (possibly interrelated) issues that undermine confidence in the program's ability to have the audio happen with truly predictable timing.
And from a mix engineering perspective, the inability to predict the audio's timing breaks the audio. You wind up with phase issues, low-end clarity issues, etc. It's not just a "control freak" thing. It's an integrity and repeatability problem.
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