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Old 07-21-2004, 02:05 PM
PTUser NYC PTUser NYC is offline
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Default Who needs OSX? ReWire Reason w/OS9 even on a 9600!

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I'm keeping this post as is for the amount of good information in it. HOWEVER, I never fully got the MAudio card to work right in this system. I finally pulled it, and got an RME 96/8 PAD card instead, and life is excellent. It works perfectly. So read below, but if you're really going to do this, then read the subsequent post(s) at the end of the thread about the RME card, which really DOES work in this situation. Thank god for ASIO drivers!
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Iím SO excited as I type this. I have found the perfect lo fi answer to all these OSX upgrading headaches I keep reading about. Iíve added everything to my lowly 9600 and it works really well. The poor manís ReWire for Reason digital streaming is my latest coup, and I felt I had to share it here, and maybe save you many thousand dollars? Skip ahead to the trick below if you must. For those who may attempt this, here's the full story.

I bought my trusty 9600 back in 1997. Itís a great solid machine with 6 PCI slots. One nice thing about the 9600 is that the PCI slots are split between two separate buses. I think thatís part of the reason (pun intended) that all my cards are getting along so nicely.

Somewhere in 1998 I put in a 400MHz G3 Processor (MaxPower by Newertech) as an upgrade to the 604e that came with it. I havenít upgraded the processor since. Its still a lowly G3 @ 400MHz!

In 1998 I bought a PT Mix3 system, and two SampleCell cards. The SC Cards are great. SC has terrible converters, but with a TDM system, they just stream the 1s and 0s right into the TDM bus via a ribbon cable, so they ďsoundĒ pretty good. With 5 PCI cards to add to my PCI bus, I bought an SBS 13 slot PCI expander Chassis, and put only the Digidesign cards inside it. I added an Apogee AD8000 with the digi8 card to use as my converters, and an 888|24 to use as an AES/EBU and SPDF hub for outboard DSP boxes, like my PCM91, CD Players, and others.

Of course with a Pro Tools rig, I needed drives to record to, so an ATTO Dual SCSI PCI card came on board too, to address two 9GB Cheetahs. I use this rig for production and composition gigs, so I needed non linear video playback Ė I bought a DC30+ Video Card, and it works flawlessly with everything else. This was all under OS 8.6! It worked flawlessly for many years this way.

When I decided to add FireWire to this computer, I got an iogear PCI card, and added that to the rest Ė I needed to upgrade the System to OS9.1 at this point, and add 9.2.2 FW drivers, but after a little extention juggling, it worked like a charm. I now have my entire sample library online on a FW Drive. I upgraded my Pro Tools software to 5.1.1cs5, and Iím about as current as a Mix system can be. All the processing is happening on the Digidesign PCI cards, so my computer, as slow as it is, has almost nothing to do but update the screen now and again. There is lots of processing overhead left in this dinosaur. I bought Stylus, and I can run several instances without crashing. I usually run them one at a time, and record the result anyway. I was pretty much current without having followed the upgrade and bug route, but I was missing one thing. My rig, and any OS9 rig, does not have ReWire capabilities for bringing external software synths and programs like Reason back into Pro Tools.

For this Reason (yes), I was seriously thinking about taking the plunge, and having to reduplicate all the functionality of my machine and software (see the Waves debaucle) and the numbers were getting very high very quickly. Then I thought about an experiment.

I bought Reason, and it runs fine on my lowly 9600/G3. I canít get a ton of modules, but I can get more than a few going, certainly enough to program grooves, and even enough horsepower to run large NN-XT sampler patches. At least this was better than my experiments with softSampleCell which I also tried, couldnít get stable enough to run consistently. It was no big deal at the time, Iím always able to use the two SC PCI cards instead. I was impressed by the sound of the new high resolution sample interpolation scheme in SoftSC, but similar technology is available in the modules of Reason, including NN-XT. Cool!

So anyway, right away I could use Reason, and as long as Pro Tools was not open (or was not running in ďbackgroundĒ mode), Reason had no trouble addressing my Apogee AD8000. I could always program tracks, and export them into PT, like I always did with ReCycle, but there was no way in the software to hear them both at the same time, as an integrated workstation. I was able to get Pro Tools to control and sync Reason via OMS, and the IAC bus, but the audio output of Reason was unavailable to the TDM bus in any way.

Now, here's the trick.

I bought another cheap little PCI card. I got an M-Audio 1010TL, which has a SPDF output. I put it into the machine, loaded the drivers, put copies of the ASIO drivers into the ASIO folder in Reason, set the control panel (it crashes with any other software running, so set it first and then close it) and then when I opened Reason, I told it to address its output to the M-Audio soundcard via ASIO! All I had to do then, was to run an RCA cable from the SPDF output of the M-Audio card into the SPDF input on the 888|24, and VOILA! I could bring back Reason on a stereo aux send or track into Pro Tools!

So simple, why hadn't I thought or read of it before? You don't NEED ReWire, you just need a second cheap soundcard!

Pro Tools and Reason cohabitate beautifully. I can switch between them while running music, and nothing crackles. I can program the ReDrum computer from little buttons in reason, AND trigger it from a midi track inside Pro Tools at the same time. Amazing.

Check out what I have loaded onto this ancient computer:

9600 w/G3 @ 400MHz processor upgrade
OS 9.1, 832MB RAM

11 PCI Cards!

Slot 1 Bridge to Expander Chassis
Slot 2 iogear FW Card
Slot 3 M-Audio 1010TL secondary audio card
Slot 4 ATTO Dual SCSI Card
Slot 5 DC30+ Video Card
Slot 6 Built In Video Card

Expander Chassis:
Slot 0 Bridge Card
Slots 1-3 left open because the addresses are already used inside computer
Slot 4 PT Mix Core
Slot 5 PT Mix Farm
Slot 6 PT Mix Farm
Slot 7 SampleCell TDM
Slot 8 SampleCell TDM

10 Hard Drives!

INT SCSI (slow):

4GB HD: Includes System Folder, Applications, and therefore all disk authorizations.
18GB HD: For quick temp backup of projects. Usually blank.
Floppy Drive: For disk installs
Zip Drive: Never use it

EXT SCSI (slow):

DVD-RAM Drive: For backup of projects, before FW drives
Jaz Drive: For transferring small files between computers

ATTO SCSI (two buses):

2 x 9GB Cheetah: One on each UltraSCSI bus, for recording

FireWire:

120 GB: Online Sample Library
200 GB: Storage of projects, experimenting with recording to it, and ditching SCSI

Often running:

Pro Tools TDM 5.1.1cs5
Stylus (Atmosphere, and Trilogy? I donít own them yet)
SampleCell editor
ReCycle 2.0
Reason 2.5
Adobe Premiere (video editing)

I have experiments forthcoming for Absynth, and NI instruments via the M-Audio Card.

And, it doesnít crash!

Also, my 4GB drive, is partitioned into two sections. The smaller one contains the system folder, and all copy protected programs, and therefore all the hidden disk authorizations. I have made a disk image of this disk with every preference set how I like it, and then optimized. If I ever have any trouble (and so far I havenít) I wonít bother troubleshooting on a clients time, or a short deadline Ė I just re-install the disk image and all software is back to a known, clean, and working state.

Iím gonna hang onto this computer for a little while longer, and wait for all the bugs, and multiple upgrades to settle out. So far the only things Iím missing are:

Groove Quantization in PT
Automatic Delay Compensation
A slightly better mix engine (this one sounds great)
Better versions of some plugs
Convolution Reverbs

These are serious advantages, but they are not worth $20K to me at this point.

How many upgrade paths have I sat out of now? How many generations of computer hardware and software have come and become obsolete? My rig still does what I bought it to do, and Iím still finding ways to keep it current.

I hope this trick helps you keep an older computer around too.
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  #2  
Old 07-21-2004, 02:45 PM
NuBus NuBus is offline
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Default Re: Who needs OSX? ReWire Reason w/OS9 on a 9600!

Still using My 9600 here with a G3/450

Runs for days without a restart

Loaded with Mix Cards

Weeeeeeeeeeee
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  #3  
Old 07-21-2004, 05:51 PM
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Chief Technician Chief Technician is offline
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Default Re: Who needs OSX? ReWire Reason w/OS9 on a 9600!

Quote:
Still using My 9600 here with a G3/450
What happened to the NuBus, NuBus?
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  #4  
Old 07-21-2004, 10:47 PM
PTUser NYC PTUser NYC is offline
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Default Re: Who needs OSX? ReWire Reason w/OS9 on a 9600!

You know, this whole "any software synth can be streamed into Pro Tools via a secondary audio card and SPDF" thing has me really jazzed.

I went out on a limb, and bought an XLR8 G4 450Mhz Processor upgrade for my 9600 (now a G3 @ 400MHz). I'll let you all know how installing that goes, and what benefits going from G3 to G4 get me.
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  #5  
Old 07-22-2004, 01:31 AM
talco talco is offline
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Default Re: Who needs OSX? ReWire Reason w/OS9 even on a 9

That's a cool trick!
Uh.... too much time on your hands?????
Cheers!
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  #6  
Old 07-22-2004, 08:51 AM
NuBus NuBus is offline
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Default Re: Who needs OSX? ReWire Reason w/OS9 on a 9600!

Quote:
What happened to the NuBus, NuBus?
Still have a 7100 with a dead Nuverb Card

I'll pay $50 for a working NuVerb Card

Thanks
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  #7  
Old 07-22-2004, 02:29 PM
Rock_Artist Rock_Artist is offline
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Default Re: Who needs OSX? ReWire Reason w/OS9 on a 9600!

It's not ReWire as on some cases you need to sync other material to timecode. ReWire Transport MID/Audio & Timecode... (and Slaves the Slave to PT Transport).


If you're after cheap solution to "ReWire" why not purchase a PC (the dirty word ) and use it with something like ADAT card or anything with multiple outs and get a VSTi host machine. I had this going here was pretty nice though I don't like opening all programs and projects. I'm really happy with Sessions with Virtual Instruments... (6.x ) I simply print the VirtualSynths and Disable the Track and hide it. But that's my freaky arranging.
You should really try adding 2nd machine for Synths. you can also sync them with MMC & DigitalClock (SPDIF or if you can WC).
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  #8  
Old 07-22-2004, 02:51 PM
PTUser NYC PTUser NYC is offline
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Default Re: Who needs OSX? ReWire Reason w/OS9 on a 9600!

Quote:
It's not ReWire as on some cases you need to sync other material to timecode. ReWire Transport MID/Audio & Timecode... (and Slaves the Slave to PT Transport).
I'm able to do that with OMS and the IAC Bus. Reason slaves to and follows the Pro Tools transport. I can control any Reason instrument from Pro Tools' sequencer OR from within Reason, and go back and forth between them, while it all plays, with no trouble.

Quote:
If you're after cheap solution to "ReWire" why not purchase a PC (the dirty word ) and use it with something like ADAT card or anything with multiple outs and get a VSTi host machine. I had this going here was pretty nice though I don't like opening all programs and projects.
Well, for one, the soundcard was $200, so I think that IS cheaper.

Secondly, you yourself said it: having everything on multiple computers sucks. I can use samples freely between all my programs this way, and save all the related files on one machine.

Other than multiple outs, I can't really see an advantage. I'm like you, I record the track, and keep the MIDI muted, keep notes on the sound, print it, and move on.

Plus I'm certain that my triggering is faster due to the lack of MIDI delay between machines.
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Old 07-22-2004, 04:12 PM
Tweakhead Tweakhead is offline
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Default Re: Who needs OSX? ReWire Reason w/OS9 even on a 9600!

If anyone else wants to do this I have a 9600/300 for sale. Perfect condition. Complete with 2 x Apple 17" Monitors, Adaptec 3940 SCSI Card, Yamaha SCSI CD Burner, 2 x Apple Keybords & Mice. A few hundred bucks and it's all yours. Reply to this if you are interested and arrange to get in touch. Los Angeles area.
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  #10  
Old 07-22-2004, 06:04 PM
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Chief Technician Chief Technician is offline
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Default Re: Who needs OSX? ReWire Reason w/OS9 on a 9600!

The biggest problem with this scenario, and its only a problem if you don't really know (or care) how digital audio synchronization works, is getting everything to sync to the same clock. I've done this before. I picked up an M-Audio Delta DIO 2496 soundcard. I routed the S/PDIF from the 888|24 to the Delta, and the Delta to my O2R. Now, all I have to do is set the O2R to sync to the Delta, assign it to a fader, and I'm good to go (I bus it out the O2R to PT). The problem is that some people don't want to think about clocking. They just want to do it.

For people who don't know or don't care about clocking, rewire is the way to go, unless you don't mind snap crackle pop in your audio.

Shameless plug - I may have a G4/500 or a G3/450 available for those who want one to do this. Email me (from profile).
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