Looking for some Expertise & Guidance...

[pguy]

Hey Everyone....

I know this is the Pro Tools Forum and I've only been here a short time, being fairly new to Pro Tools, coming from Sonar but...... I see many asking for advice on equipment for their Pro Tools setup so I figured it would be okay to ask as well.

I'm very confident in asking this here because I definitely think this is a great forum, with so many great people here! this is by far the best forum that that I've been on!

Everyone here is polite, mature and respectful to one another... What a Pleasure!

So I'm very confident in and looking forward to your input.

So here's my story... I record only Alto Sax and here is my present setup....

Digi 003 Rack
Rosetta 200
Rosetta Big Ben
Focusrite Liquid Channel
Neve Portico 5032
Portico Tape FX 5042
Chameleon Labs 7602
Rode K2 & NTK
Royer R121
AEA R84

Plugins include.... Waves Platinum, McDSP Emerald Pack, & UAD-1.

Since haven't had any experience testing and comparing all sorts of gear, my curiosity still stands for whether or not I should add anything else to my setup.

I hear of so many front end pieces like.....610, LA610, Great River, etc., as well as curiosity for others like....SSL Alpha Channel, Pacifica, Germanium, Avalon, Groove Tubes ViPRE etc.,..... and how great they are and wanted to know am I missing out on anything.

Are any of these front end pieces going to give me that real "WOW" factor above and beyond what I already have to where it would truly be a significant difference from what I have and a worthwhile investment?

Having the Liquid Channel and not knowing how it really stacks up to the originals as well as having the UAD-1 and not know how it holds up the real hardware, I can't help the curiosty and wonder what else could possibly be needed in the desire to improve the sound.

When I bought most of this stuff I definitely was inexperienced, especially in the 'Ears" department, and was looking to get started with a home studio setup and basically went by reviews and word of mouth consensus of what was the "Good Stuff".

I pretty much thought recording basically dry, with just a good mic and a real good pre was the most ideal way to go, this way you can do whatever you want to your sound in the mix with all the great modeled plugins that I mentioned.

I'm really not sure at this point. Maybe one or two other flavored mics?

You know I hear CD's of sax players where on one CD with 10 or so songs, you hear 4 or 5 subtle, but not so subtle variations of that one sax. I'm not talking about chorus or detuning or anything like that, there's just a different character or flavor about the sax.

You know it's the same player, but often wonder what they did to their sound.

Is it just EQ'd differently... or were different microphones used.....or compressed differently in the mix with possibly different compressors or....
was it done pre A/D conversion on the front end?

I just don't know

Thanks for listening and do appreciate your expertise!

[docscholl]

You've got way more experience than I, but here's what I've discovered after several recordings of brass & assorted woodwinds (ensemble recordings only):
EQ is my friend.
Not so much to boost the specific instrument but rather to isolate the other, surrounding instruments.

Okay - that might be old news to a lot of engineers, but it was a nice discovery on my part and really helped augment the sound quality of the individual instruments.

So, my humble suggestion is to experiment with the EQ.
A nice assortments of mics and mic placement are obviously a BIG plus in any recording, but once that sound is captured, color it with EQ.

[Angelo of Onello]

i can agree with coloring with the EQ.
you probably have more gear than necessary, but who doesnt right?

may i suggest the Shure 57 (this is a standard proven microphone)
just make sure you're input levels dont clip, and you can go nuts with the editting.

monkey around with recording with the compressor on, i'm no saxaphonist, but i can see how you may have some sharp 'high's' , if you could knock them down from the get-go, you should be able to have a steady performance volume.

some drummers use 14+ mics to record their set, some use 5, some use 7. i use 2 for guitar, sometimes 1. get the picture? experiment with the different sounds first of different mic placements.

for instance, when i first started micing my distortion, i had a friend put on flat-headphones out of the digi002 unit, and take a Shure 57 mic in each hand and move them around the front of my amp while i was playing, once he found the position that sounded the best, he held it, and i used a tape-measure to mark the spots out. so grab a friend to help you with this, dont settle for less. the best sounds-in, make the best sounds-out.

then EQ, dynamics, the whole nine. have fun with it man! good luck!

[docscholl]

Thanks!

Yeah - love the SM57 - very good multi-purpose mic.

[BradLyons]

Thanks for the detailed post of what you have and what you're after. First of all, the gear you have is GREAT STUFF---CONGRATS!! May I ask, what are you using for studio monitors? Also what are you using for monitor attenuation? This is important because what you hear is what you'll mix, and listening to choice of mics and pres as well as placement is important BEFORE recording. But with that said, let me dive into what you're doing and what you have.

Recording Sax can be tricky as that instrument can have some real guts to it, but it can also be very mellow in soft. However right in between a Sax can get somewhat harsh, too. Of the mics you have, I would absolutely no doubt use either the Royer R121 or the R84 from AEA. IMHO, those are two of the best choices you could find. You have some good outboard gear, but the key to a great sound is matching up the right mic with the right pre. The LIquid Channel is a great box, I used to own (3) of them at one point. But as much as I like it, it only goes so far. I mean, you can't truly emulate tube----tube is tube and only tube can ever do what tube does. Where I"m goine here is TUBE :)

I've had this talk with clients of mine who want to preserve the instrument, so they want to stay away from tube. But the reality is with the right combination of gear and the right choice in a tube pre, it can really bring out the depth of the instrument. For example, why do you think guitar players generally prefer a tube amp over solid state? It's for better tone! Now talking an electric guitar v/s an acoustic instrument is quite different, but also similar.

Although not the biggest household name and it's a 2-channel v/s a single channel, I'm a HUGE fan of the ADL600 from Presonus and use them myself when I use Royer's. When I go out to record a choir with a Royer SF12, I take an ADL600. When I'm on location or in the studio recording a guitar amp, I'm using the R121 or R122 through that pre. When I'm recording Trumpet or Sax in the studio, I use a Royer through the ADL600 and again receive great results. Recently I tracked a singer/songwriter using a Mojave Audio MA201Fet and a BLUE Woodpecker through a Focusrite ISA828 and wasn't digging the sound of the MA201fet, so I plugged that into the ADL600 and wouldn't you know it, PERFECT. NO EQ needed, either. I select my mics and pres based on combinations and I'm in a position to take gear home, evaluate them, and then make my purchasing decisions based on that. I can honestly tell you that the ADL600 always ends up being my "go-to" pre.... I use my Earthworks TC30's over my drums through the ADL600. For awhile I was using a clean-gain pre to preserve the cymbals, but this pre still gives me that while giving me some incredible tone as well. I even use the ADL600 to run my mix bus through.

With that said, there are many other options to consider. The gear you have is absolutely pro-quality and technically, you don't really need to ugprade. But I have to say that a good tube pre with those two mics would really be the "ultimate" for you. Even a little UA Solo610 for $800 would be a serious upgrade in this situation, IMHO. Although I'm worried about the gain on the R84 with that.

Here's a live recording I did using a Royer SF12 through an ADL600

http://www.theaudioprofessional.com/...ll%20Stand.mp3


Here's a studio clip of drums using the ADL600 with the Earthworks. The cymbals are clear with excellent stereo separation, even though this is a tube pre. By the way, that's also an ADL600 on the Kick and Snare as well.

http://www.theaudioprofessional.com/...les/drums1.mp3


Here is a live concert using the ADL600 on Acoustic Guitar, Bass Guitar, as well as lead vocals using Shure U4D wireless with a Beta87C transmitter. This is also the SF12 through an ADL600 on the choir, although not so much as I mainly used (2) KM184's and (2) C451B's through the pres on my Venue console due to the band being so loud.

http://www.theaudioprofessional.com/...u%20Praise.mp3

Enjoy!

http://www.theaudioprofessional.com/...les/drums1.mp3

[pguy]

Thanks Brad, I appreciate it!

Sorry forgot the monitors.....I have

JBL LSR 428's
KRK V6
Yamaha Hs 50M

...used with a Presonus Central Station

also.... at the office...

KRK V4.

I like the R121 & AEA R84 a lot but sometimes my sound with them is so thick it gets to be a little dull honky and for certain tunes. On the other hand, the Rode's are a little less honky, a give little more brilliance and excitment.

I was also thinking along the lines of something real tube as far as a pre is concerned.

For Pre's my thoughts were maybe a UA 610 or a 710....I bet that sounds good....... or maybe even possibly a LA610 or 6176.

I also had a fascination about the Groove Tubes ViPRE.

I'm just not sure.

I'd love to try them all side by side!..... and then take my pick!

[daeron80]

When the same sax player sounds a bit different from track to track on the same CD, most likely the differences are attributable to a combination of things:
- changes in the reed from day to day (reeds are notoriously temperamental)
- changes in the player's frame of mind and physical condition from day to day (a guy with a hangover isn't going to play as hard)
- change in mic height or direction, or in where the player is placed with respect to the mic (maybe he's 3 inches to one side or turned at a little different angle)
- these days, it's not uncommon for records to be made in a number of different studios, so it could be a whole different room from track to track. One of the biggest influences on the sound of any acoustic instrument is the room it's in - far bigger than mic and/or pre choice.
- maybe after the first couple songs, the engineer decided to put up some padding somewhere in the room, but didn't think it was important enough to retrack the others for.

There are more things that could be added. Anything that changes the situation or the process in any way will almost always affect the sound.

[pguy]

I hear ya..... Thanks daeron80

Question for Brad if you're still here...

In the mic dept. I was thing of one of the Mojave's or the Bock Fet for some other flavors.

Should I bother?

[BradLyons]

I'm here....physically anyway, mentally most likely not! I'm a big fan of the Mojave stuff, it would be a great match with your Portico or Liquid Channel. I still would lean towards the Royer for the mic, however. I am confused when you say that your sound is "thick" with those ribbons, because those aren't thick sounding mics. That's again where I have to say look at the pre, that will make the difference. With that said, understand this. Today, there are mics made that are brighter because that's how cheaper capsules sound. Many times this is mis-understood for presence when really, it's not. Old school mics sound darker, or what appears to be darker because it's the real sound. You can EQ out, you can't EQ in. The biggest mistake most will make is to "EQ the sound in". Well, EQ is meant to fix bad frequency.....EQ is not about adding tone, THAT is what the mics and pres do. Now there are EQ's that by nature add a great tone with the circuitry and its design, but the EQ itself does not.

IMHO, stick with the Royers.....add a different flavor pre, I think you'd be surprised. Also, play with mic placement and position, that can make all the difference in the sound!

[pguy]

Hey Brad.... Thanks!

Yes, I agree about the darker sound of those ribbons...(R121 & R84) and with that I guess I naturally hear and perceive a thicker sound because of that darker sound.

But.... also, would you agree that the darkness of these two ribbon mics is also a product of the high end roll off,(drop off) that they posses in the high end of the frequency spectrum..... and couldn't you achieve that sound by rolling off the high end on, lets's say, a Rode NTK or similar mic?

Also....

A) Would one of the Mojave mics or... you mentioned the Blue Mouse, be a noticeable and worthwhile different flavor to add to my mic closet and compliment a Royer R121, AEA R84,
Rode NTK and a Rose K2?

B) For the other pre amp flavor.... You mentioned and spoke highly of the Presonus ADL 600 and also a UAD Solo 610. What other pres would you recommend in adition to these two to add and complete my setup?

Thanks!!