OT: Shipping is whose responsibility?

[proxy]

Hi, I am wondering, when a piece of gear is mid-transit between a dealer and the consumer, who's responsibility is it?

I recently received a piece of gear from a dealer that was quite damaged in transit via UPS. I think it's a pretty grey area in terms of how well it was packed (no notable outer damage to the box), and I want to know from my fellow DUC-ers:

Is that *my* gear that is broken and I need to battle UPS to get them to repair it and the dealer can wash their hands of it?,

OR

...is it the responsibility of the retailer/shipper until it is in my hands in undamaged condition?



Your insight is always appreciated,

- proxy

[Lee Blaske]

Shipping is who's responsibility?

Who's responsibility? Not likely. Who was on first base, and most likely had nothing to do with shipping your equipment.

Have you contacted the company that shipped it? Do they have a stated policy? Was the item fully insured?

If there were no signs of damage on the outside of the box (and it wasn't noted at the time of delivery), collecting from UPS will be a challenge. Items should be packed well. UPS has some specific guidelines about packing. Were these followed?

Lee Blaske

[proxy]

Hey Lee,

Thanks for the response.

In answer to your questions...
> Have you contacted the company that shipped it?
Yes - we're still working it out to what I hope will be an acceptable resolution, but it made me want to ask about others' experiences, AND it's not over yet, so I wanted to look into it more.

> Was the item fully insured?
Yes. Sidenote: Unit still functions sonically (for now), but the cosmetic damage is serious and makes me nervous about what lurks underneath.


I'm suspect about how strictly those guidelines were followed. Just some bubblewrap and a couple of extra flat cardboard pieces.

There was initial talk of me having to chase down UPS, and a potential return, repair and resend (and the accompanying looong wait for it all to be sorted out). In my mind, I paid for a unit in fully working order - one that *hasn't* been dropped, mashed, then resurrected. It seems that my contract with the dealer is fairly simple, I give them the money in full, they deliver to me the unit as described. I've lived up to my end of the bargain, if they can't get the unit to me safely, it seems they have yet to live up to theirs.

I would think any respectable dealer would assume this responsibility, no?

- proxy

ps - I-don't-know is definitely on third base!

[lampmusic]

i recently had an experience with a vendor that sent multiple packages via ups. It was someone's finished cd's. As many of you know replication typically requires a 1000 minimum order. Well since one of the packages was lost (found out 3 weeks later that the label came off in shipping) The vendor told me that it was my responsibility once it left his dock and there was no way that they would run any more becuase there was the 1000 minimum issue!

Needless to say my client didn't have the patience or understanding for this particular concept. Bottom line, I was able to stall just long enough to sort everything out w/ups.

UPS by the way, said that it is usually up to the shipper to follow through on any kind of shipping anomally.

The lesson i learned from this particular vendor, which is 70 miles away from my office, is that never again will have them ship anything to me, i will pickup from them.

good luck on working it out.

I also have been a UPS shipper for almost 20 years - about 7-8 years ago ups changed their attitude towards damage claims. The number 1 thing that they will say 100% of the time is "improper packaging" We almost have to have a full-time staff person to fight the damage claims. We ship about 20-30 packages a week. Sometimes it really takes some intense calls with a claims rep to get anything done.

[Howardk]

Hi, I am wondering, when a piece of gear is mid-transit between a dealer and the consumer, who's responsibility is it?

It is 100% clear unless there is an agreement spelt out. . . the terms are usually noted on the buyer's Purchase Order and confirmed back on the Sales Confirmation from the seller. . . which is not something many of us do in this business in our haste. The reponsibility has to do with were the legal ownership of the item takes place and who is accepting responsibility for safe delivery. In North America Suppliers generally prefer the frieght term "FOB Origin", which means the legal title of that item moves to the purchaser as soon as the frieght company picks it up from the supplier, and it becomes the purchaser's responsibily from that point forward. . . which can really suck when it gets damaged and the seller did not tick the little box that says "Insured Shipment" even when the buyer instructed them to. The buyers would prefer the seller assume all responsibility, and in that case the fright term "FOB Destination" is generally used (the seller is responsibile to provide safe delivery to the purchaser's premises).

These "Frieght Terms" are known as "IncoTerms" in international trade. More on all the Incoterms for international trade, if anyone actually uses this stuff:
INCOTERMS

[proxy]

Thank you for that information - very interesting. So, technically, in FOB-Origin situations, packing the box sufficiently is sort of a favor that the seller is doing you. You are paying to own the unit, the shipping and packing is all the buyer's responsibility.

I suppose my situation doesn't come up frequently enough to warrant dealers to change their policy, but it seems that since the shipper is the only person who has control over the quality of packing, the choice of vendor, and has any leverage in terms of quality of service from the vendor, it should be (IMO) and can only really be their responsibility. If I were being really diligent about monitoring and approving the packing job (seeing as it's my responsibility, right?), by calling and saying "hi, can you send me a digital photo of the packing job so I may approve it before you send it?" - they'd say "yo, I got ya package right here..."

My particular situtation looks like it's being worked out to an agreeable end, but it did bring up the question and is something I will always inquire about before finalizing any future purchase.

Thanks,

- proxy

[Howardk]

One approach is to state, "Seller will package the shipment for safe Transport" on the PO. Then if they do a horrible job and it is damaged in shipping, even when the carrier handles it carefully, you have some recourse. Suppliers worth working with will take responsibility regardless. Keep in mind insurance is useless if the box shows up and looks good, you accept the shipment, and you open it to find damaged contents. If you see any damage at all, write "carton damaged" on the waybill before signing. . . otherwise you generally can not make an insurance claim with the carrier. Also, take pictures and notify the carrier to open a claim, immediately if there is damage to contents. Most carriers only provide $100 of insurance (or none) unless you specifically pay for insurance on the shipment (typically a premium of .5-$1 per $100 insured value).

There are cases where I have specified the exact packing method, down to the exact design of the foam packing sandwich, cardboard strength, box size, etc. . . very industry dependant and you can only do this when doing high volume business with the supplier. I have had ebay sellers do a terrible job and gear damaged as a result. I find with some gentle coaxing people generally do take responsibility, but it can be a pain when the person on the other end is unreasonable and there is little or no recourse.

[mu-tron-kid]

This situation sucks for both sides !

Basically, the Dealer (shipper) is responsible (unless stated on a purchase policy page on their website and/or in the Purchase / Sales reciept)

Most dealers have a shipping account with (at least) one carrier, therefore limiting the Customers CHOICE as to shipping methods and "SET" shipping charges.

Therefore, the Dealer / shipper should be following the Carriers shipment guidelines (ala UPS's minimum packing requirements for Insured shipments)

Also, if the item is damaged, THE SHIPPER (Dealer) is the only one that can FILE the initial DAMAGE Inspection / INSURANCE claim. (The Customer / Buyer, can initiate the "On-Site" inspection of the damaged container / goods, but not put the CLAIM in)
It is only after the claim has been filed that the "buyer" can agree to ALLOW the SHIPPER to release the claim / insurance funds directly to the reciever (buyer / customer).

Unfortunately, most of the time, the damages are the FAULT of the CARRIER ! thus both the Dealer and Customer get screwed as the customer doesn't get what they purchased, and the dealer has to fight through a claims process that could keep the dealer from recieving a claim (and the damaged item back) for 30+ days (after most likely refunding the Customers Original Purchase price).

The tricky part here is that, most Dealers CANNOT refund the purchase price until they have recoed the Item back. So, Your money is tied up for as long as it takes to get UPS to come and inspect, and then return the damaged goods to the shipper.

This isn't so bad for a LARGE company that can have funds "in transit" without affecting it;s bottom line for a few weeks, BUT since most of us are looking for the BEST deal and Quickest shipment, it is these smaller Dealers (who usually do not have a large stock , if any, of the purchased item) and it really messes things up to have to REFUND a sale, AND be out a piece of (damaged) equipment and any insurance monies for a month!

So, realistically, always over pack and protect for the worst case dropping and throwing onto airplanes of gear, AND always pay for the fastest shipping and full insurance !

Or just pay a little more (and tax) and support your LOCAL dealers: NO SHIPPING !
Think of how much the Gear is and then think about how much a little extra shiping charge is!

I can't tell you how many $20,000 guitars I have seen shipped FEDEX Ground (at the customers request to "Save a few bucks", and then get lost, smashed / wet boxes, and /or damaged cases, electronics, wood, etc....I mean, anything remotely fragile should go OVERNIGHT. What's another $100 for shipping something that costs $2000 or more? This is less than the State Sales Tax you would pay if you baught it locally (avoiding shipping in the first place !)

Imagine a Pultec getting tossed onto a plane in a "Flight Case". Those insides would be all over the place !!!

Sorry it got so long and "rant-y"

I used to waste full business days SCREAMING at FEDEX / UPS about their Damages and Claims processes.......

[proxy]

Are you saying FedEx Overnight is going be safer because it has less time in transit, or are there other reasons?

Fortunately it was insured and the dealer is getting me a new one which is great. Some of the grey area comes in with "packed well enough" - what's 'enough'? I don't think this one was packed well enough because it showed up busted - if it were 'enough', it wouldn't be broken. It also didn't follow UPS suggestions for packing. I can understand if the shipper has crushed the box somehow, but if things are poking out from inside of the box because there wasn't enough padding/foam, I think it's a packing issue, and I'm pretty sure UPS will agree. UPS probably always wants to blame it on the quality of the packing, but in this case, they'd be right.

Thanks for the other perspectives - it's nice to know I'm not the only one, and yes, there is definitely something to getting stuff locally, particularly if it is pre-owned.

- proxy

[mu-tron-kid]

Yeah, Overnight to limit the amount of time and people coming in contact with your Item.