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  #1  
Old 04-13-2007, 08:58 PM
ThomasPMusic ThomasPMusic is offline
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Default AUX BUS DELAYS....HELP PLEASE!!

Hello all.
How many samples of delay is incured when going thru an aux bus?
I am at 96k, and want to double bus something, but need it to be phase accurate.
I see the mixer reporting the plugin delays, but what about the trip thru the bus itself??
any help appreciated.
Can't find it in the manual. (I have the 7.3 manual right here...
tp
www.thomaspmusic.com
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  #2  
Old 04-13-2007, 09:09 PM
Mark Dann Mark Dann is offline
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Default Re: AUX BUS DELAYS....HELP PLEASE!!

I see this same scenario when I set up busses to do parallel compression. Do this:

Have the mixer set to show delay compensation. I'm not at my system, so I don't remember the exact terminology, but I will assume you know what I mean. Now, look at the amount of delay on your master fader. That will be the TOP number. Note that number. Now, type in that number in the user entry slot (again, I forget the actual term) on the aux channel. Now your aux will be properly delayed.

Your routing may be different than what I use, but your solution will likely be based on what I described above.

Good luck.
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  #3  
Old 04-14-2007, 08:43 AM
Danny Caccavo Danny Caccavo is offline
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Default Re: AUX BUS DELAYS....HELP PLEASE!!

I don't know if this is your situation, but there is a recently discovered bug (previously thought to be a design limitation) that comes up when doing the following -
1) Source track (call it "snare"
2) route to bus 1-2, but also bus 3-4
3) Two aux tracks, one receiving bus 1-2, the other receiving bus 3-4
4) Send the outputs of the two auxes to the same main output
5) One master fader on bus 1-2, the other on bus 3-4
6) Instanciate a plug-in on only ONE of the master faders (the delay in this plug-in might be a factor)

Result - the time-alignment isn't working and you get phasiness or delay. There are cases where using Master faders break the compensation (like if you put a mono master fader on output 1 and another on output 2, and then put a plug-in across only one of them), the above case *should* work - but it doesn't. We expect this to be fixed in the next major revision of Pro Tools.

Thanks to whoever here complained about that specific instance - it led to the fix. In the future, whenever you find specific scenarios that don't work, please post them in a detailed step-by-step recipe, and we'll get to them.

Thanks - hope this helps.

Danny Caccavo
Product Manager
Digidesign
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  #4  
Old 04-14-2007, 04:51 PM
Andre Knecht Andre Knecht is offline
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Default Re: AUX BUS DELAYS....HELP PLEASE!!

Hi Danny,

Thanks for posting this — at least I know that I wasn’t imagining things. (I had sent you a session exhibiting this behavior.)

I am grateful for the acknowledgment of the existing bug because at least I’ll know to check for it, seeing as I employ the kind of mixer routing you described in just about every mixing session.


I also would like to make a plea for the speediest-possible software release addressing this issue. Phase errors manifest themselves in so many ways — ranging from the overt “talk-through-a-tube” comb filtering to a far more subtle tonal shift. I am concerned by the latter — easy to miss in a fast-paced situation and/or towards the end of a long day.

I can (and do) live with a fair number of operational type of bugs. But this, with its direct impact on sonics… this scares the heck out of me.


Again, thanks for writing!
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Andre Knecht

We’ll fix it in the shrink-wrap. (Frank Zappa)

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  #5  
Old 04-14-2007, 06:28 PM
ThomasPMusic ThomasPMusic is offline
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Default Re: AUX BUS DELAYS....HELP PLEASE!!

Thanks for teh responses.
Does anyone know the sapmle delays of an aux??
I don't use delay compensation because it seems to affect transients. check me please.
Seem to loose the front of sounds when I turn it on...

I am looking for the delays...meaning sending something thru a bus introduces ___samples.
sending something thru a master fader introduces ____samples. I have a very complex mastering session here and need to time alighn various "layers" of sound on auxes. the plugins report their delays, but the trips thru auxes??
Frustrated that I cant find this info after 2 hours of searching the reference manual, and answerbase, etc...
Seems like basic specs that we all could use.
Again thanks for the quick responses though.
They were kind of like a well intentioned "cooked-with-love" steak dinner placed before a vegetarian.
Thanks but not what I had in mind:):):)
tp
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  #6  
Old 04-15-2007, 01:52 AM
dawkab dawkab is offline
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Default Re: AUX BUS DELAYS....HELP PLEASE!!




So.....are there any other "broken" parts in the HD mixer that we should know about?
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  #7  
Old 04-15-2007, 01:42 PM
Mark Dann Mark Dann is offline
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Default Re: AUX BUS DELAYS....HELP PLEASE!!

This is EXACTLY the situation I was commenting on. When I set up the mixer for parallel compression, I am doing JUSt what you described. My solution is as I mentioned. It works perfectly, but of course is an extra step.
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  #8  
Old 04-19-2007, 09:02 PM
Danny Caccavo Danny Caccavo is offline
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Default Re: AUX BUS DELAYS....HELP PLEASE!!

Quote:
This is EXACTLY the situation I was commenting on. When I set up the mixer for parallel compression, I am doing JUSt what you described. My solution is as I mentioned. It works perfectly, but of course is an extra step.
Until the fix is published, you can also make sure that the two master faders (on the parallel busses) have the same plug-in complement (you can always bypass the plug-ins you don't want, and the delay won't change).

Not ideal, but easier than your method above.

I don't know of any other "phasey" bugs like this - but as I mentioned, if you find something, let us know.

Hope this helps...

Danny Caccavo
Product Manager
Digidesign
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  #9  
Old 05-17-2007, 02:42 AM
scottgreiner scottgreiner is offline
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Default Re: AUX BUS DELAYS....HELP PLEASE!!

Quote:
...I don't know of any other "phasey" bugs like this - but as I mentioned, if you find something, let us know.

Hope this helps...

Danny Caccavo
Product Manager
Digidesign
This may just be a TDM limitation and not a bug - not sure:

Mixing in the box I ASSIGN the outputs of my drum tracks to a pair of busses (1/2 let's say); and then I SEND these individual tracks to another bus (say, 3/4) via an aux send - all is well/delays are compensated, even when I use master faders as trims for these subgroups (though I've never put plugins on my trims as mentioned above).

Then I go to mix on a console. I re-assign the outputs of the tracks that went to bus 1/2 to individual outputs, and the stuff sent via aux send 3/4 out a pair of outputs to the console as well (to keep the blend I created in the box). Now I've got a timing difference between the direct assigned outputs and the aux 3/4 output.

My only solution seems to be to NOT use the output assignments, but send the individual tracks out via AUX sends set to post fader at unity gain, so they line up with the AUX 3/4 submix.

I guess I'm saying there's a timing difference between things ASSIGNED to outputs and things BUSSED to outputs. Is this a bug or a limitation?
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  #10  
Old 05-17-2007, 02:50 AM
scottgreiner scottgreiner is offline
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Default Re: AUX BUS DELAYS....HELP PLEASE!!

I just re-read the above posts, and I think I just repeated what everyone else was saying - sorry.

It seems that the aux sends are later that the output assignments, so there's no real way to compensate outside the TDM environment (short of how I described above).

thoughts anyone?
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