Are master faders really necessary???

[AppleFunk]

Hi,

I'm asking myself if it is really necessary to use master faders. The reason being is that I am thinking of getting a Mackie Baby HUI as a control surface. As I understand it, the HUI protocol doesn't support master faders, so I am wondering if I could achieve the same thing by 'grouping' faders together. That way if I need to adjust the levels of a group of channels I can still do it using the Baby HUI.

Am I along the right lines here or is there something I am missing???

Thanks to all.
(BTW do you think the Baby HUI is a good choice?)
Apple

[KingFish]

Well it depends on what you use the master fader for, I have been known to turn the verses down 2db, and the choruses back up to 0db, for a bit of a lift.

This would take me a really long time, to group All tracks, minus Aux's, and perform automation, rather than just work on the master fader.

I As well as insert a roll Off EQ - C4 - Compressor - and an L2 on my master fader, somewhat "mastering my mixes" for my "bounce to disks" for rough 2's throughout the recording process, maintaining some perspective on where everything might sit, when mastered.

This can not really be done without a master fader, I suppose you could do it through a stereo Aux, routing all tracks, and subgroups through a buss.... but then routing gets messy.

anyways, to simply answer your question, as it pertains to ME, is, yes... a master fader is very important to me.

[nikki-k]

Hi!
If you dont plan on inserting ANY plugs on the entire mix, and see no need to adjust the "summed" output level, then a Master Fader is not needed. On a basic level, this is all the Master Fader does.

The original HUI did not have a Master Fader on it. The way to control the Master Fader(s) in a session was quite simple though: ANY faders displayed on-screen in a session would be addressable by the HUI in banks of 8. If one had a single Master Fader in a session, and it was the last fader on-screen, then "banking" all the way right would have the Master Fader under the final (right hand) fader on the HUI.

Due to the nature of a Master Fader in ANY situation (analog or digital, although more so in digital), I simply do not see a need for a dedicated Master Fader on the control surface being used. (maybe Mackie understood this as well, hence the lack of one ).

If the Master Fader is being used to control the level out to monitors, it is being misused, plain and simple. The output should be going to a device to control the level, preferably a passive unit constructed for that very purpose. (BTW- there are even some great DIY solutions these days, even if one opts for surround mixing. And when I say "great," I mean great- solutions that even a pro engineer would say- "Yup. I'd use it.")

All that said- for what it does, the Baby is sweet. The top controllers I liek now are: HUI, Baby, Yamaha 01V96, and would love to check out the new Yamaha and Tascam offerings, as both of these really look nice (both can be used as firewire audio I/O as well {with other DAW apps}-sweet!).

Unless one is doing heavy work with a big TDM/Avid system in a facility, I would highly suggest grabbing something for faders and at least a knob or two; using a mouse for that stuff is still a bit rough. And then instead of *wasting* money on all the other crap on some of these control surfaces- LEARN YOUR KEYBOARD!!! I'd love to see someone who really knows the keyboard shortcuts really well go up against someone with a Control24 doing edits and such

[where02190]

The short answer is no.

[Calvin]

I guess I don't really understand. If your saying you don't need to be able to control it, yah your right, but if your saying you don't need it in the session at all then your totally missing the entire point of the masterfader. The only real reason to have a masterfader is to simply be able to see the levels of your entire mix and know that your not maxing out your mix buss.

As a person that does mastering for many of my local home studio owners here in town, I will tell you that it is one of the biggest problems I see. Home users that don't have a masterfader will look at their mix and know that none of their individual channels are peaking so they bump all of their channels up so that their mix is as high as it can go. Then when they burn a cd they like it because it sounds loud. However you look at the music and it is a perfect square and the quality sucks. What happened? Well they were maxing out their mixing buss by having each channel so high and they didn't even know it. While no track is peaking the entire mix was way to loud and they ruined it. Send them home make them try it again.

This is why everyone needs a masterfader whether you use it to do anything or simply look at levels is your choice, but you do need it.

[nikki-k]

Calvin- yes, but once the levels are set, it can be deleted, as long as it has not had the fader moved. AFAIK, a Master Fader that has no inserts or level changed on it does nothing but provide that level indication you mentioned. For this, I would actually suggest grabbing a good meter insert for tracking final levels during mixing. Two heads are better than one =D

The other thing is, if calibrated correctly, I am used to working TDM for mixing, and a quick glance at the 192 meters tells me same thing the Master Fader does, without having to scroll over (if not right in front). While I always have a Master Fader, it (along with a click and a few other types of tracks) are almost always hidden for my use. Sometimes I forget which section of the DUC I am in (which is the least of my quirks... )

[Bastiaan]

1) For me a masterfader is the only reliable place to check for overloads. I also place some masteringplugins there every now and then...

2)Unless one is doing heavy work with a big TDM/Avid system in a facility...
Nikki, you would be surprised. Using a controlsurface on a big Avid system?...nope... At work we have Symphonies with Yamaha 01V's for mixing when needed. Everyone uses it as a glorified patchbay and monitor-level-control. Not for mixing.... The mixing is done in one of the audio-post-suites, where they have Procontrol (wich is sooo cooll...got to play with it once...)

[AppleFunk]

Ok, thanks to all you guys, I think I've learned quite a bit here. I see that there is actually more to master faders than one might expect. I now understand how, individual tracks although might be well withing limits, the mix buss could be overloading because the individual tracks are summed.

The fact that the Baby HUI doesn't control master faders may not be a problem, as this could just be controlled in the screen.

The other thing is that aren't master faders also used for sub-mix busses where for example you would want to mix all the percussion tracks onto a single buss and use a master fader for that buss to control the overall level for 'percussion' ?

Many Thanks
Apple

[where02190]

I guess I don't really understand. If your saying you don't need to be able to control it, yah your right, but if your saying you don't need it in the session at all then your totally missing the entire point of the masterfader. The only real reason to have a masterfader is to simply be able to see the levels of your entire mix and know that your not maxing out your mix buss.

As a person that does mastering for many of my local home studio owners here in town, I will tell you that it is one of the biggest problems I see. Home users that don't have a masterfader will look at their mix and know that none of their individual channels are peaking so they bump all of their channels up so that their mix is as high as it can go. Then when they burn a cd they like it because it sounds loud. However you look at the music and it is a perfect square and the quality sucks. What happened? Well they were maxing out their mixing buss by having each channel so high and they didn't even know it. While no track is peaking the entire mix was way to loud and they ruined it. Send them home make them try it again.

This is why everyone needs a masterfader whether you use it to do anything or simply look at levels is your choice, but you do need it.

Truly great post Calvin. I too do alot of mastering fo homespun "recordings' and if I had a nickel for everyone that gets slammed to death into the mix busss...well I'd hav a lot of nickels.

I now as the cleint to bring the mix session as well as the 2 mix with them, and many times I ahve simply lowered the gains of the individual tracks and makde the entire recording sound so much better. (hint: use an empty fader, group all and lower the empty faders level to lower all tracks without disturbing individula channel automation)

We're still in PT5 (on a mac) and use the Pluggo peakme and analyzer plugins. Nicely laid out graphically, and very accurate scales. that's the only thing I use the master fader for.

Agian, great info, nice job.

[AppleFunk]

...use an empty fader, group all and lower the empty faders level to lower all tracks without disturbing individula channel automation)

Hmmm, not sure how you mean? Would you explain a bit more pls?