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  #1  
Old 02-13-2016, 07:48 AM
jackhenri jackhenri is offline
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Default Sorry... yet another loudness query.

Hi, Sorry if this has been covered many time before.

I am a mixer based in the UK and have delivered many mixes for broadcast. Every time I get a new broadcast gig I get the obligatory tech specs, and they all ask for standard -23LUFS. Now I can see how this works over a 30 minute tv program and I know there are slightly more flexible when it comes to ads/commercials. BUT..

I'm mixing a 20 second advert where it has an awful sped up VO of a woman spouting information about joining medical trials (nice!)and it's naturally not very dynamic,. There is a very subtle fx bed, but the ad is driven completely by the VO. If I mix this to anywhere near -23LUFS. The whole ad doesn't break PPM4, which is really too quiet. I have ignored these specs on previous jobs, and my mixes have been accepted (still basically referencing PPM specs).

For the record, I also don't like overly compressed/limited audio any more than the next person, but the VO needs to be heard, so.. am I just going to ignore the r128 and deliver a mix that sounds good and is slightly above PPM5 as usual?

any words of wisdom will be greatly appreciated.

cheers
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Old 02-13-2016, 09:49 AM
jackhenri jackhenri is offline
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Default Re: Sorry... yet another loudness query.

According to the fascinating compliance document "LOUDNESS PARAMETERS FOR
SHORT-FORM CONTENT (ADVERTS; PROMOS, ETC.)"


g) that the Maximum Permitted Short-term Loudness Level (measured in compliance with EBU Tech Doc 3341) should be −18.0 LUFS (+5.0 LU on the relative scale);

I think that is a more realistic level for mixing VO in such a promo. But it does kind of undermine the whole new loudness specs.

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  #3  
Old 02-13-2016, 02:13 PM
mr.armadillo mr.armadillo is offline
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Default Re: Sorry... yet another loudness query.

Europe is mostly -23 LUFS integrated AND -20 LUFS short term, -3dB TP for commercials. Forget PPM!

In your case, you can go up to -18 for SHORT TERM, but would still have to stay within the -23 integrated.
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  #4  
Old 02-13-2016, 04:15 PM
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antonis antonis is offline
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Default Re: Sorry... yet another loudness query.

I believe there is a new implementation of the R.128 that suggest -18LU Short Term OR -15LU Momentary. Hence, the full spec is:

-23LUFS
-18LU Short Term OR -15LU Momentary
-1LU TP
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  #5  
Old 02-13-2016, 07:02 PM
coaxmw coaxmw is offline
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Default Re: Sorry... yet another loudness query.

Most ad traffic houses we work with will just turn your spot down to be within the spec. I would just ignore the PPM meters and mix to be within the specs provided.
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Old 02-14-2016, 01:08 AM
ex-user ex-user is offline
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Default Re: Sorry... yet another loudness query.

As of Jan 2016, the EBU issued a new revision of R128 and the R128 short form supplement (for short form material no more than 2min, usually 20-30sec duration) The significant change in the short form document is that 'I=-23LUFS (+-0.5) and S <=-18LUFS (+5 LU) The option of using I=-23 and M <= -15 (+8 LU) *INSTEAD* has gone.

Documentation is to be found at https://tech.ebu.ch/loudness
Summary of changes: https://tech.ebu.ch/news/2016/01/ebu...h-loudness-gui

If mixing to loudness then you're using the loudness meter. Keep your PPM if you wish for some sort of comfort factor, but in the end they're just 'pretty waggly things' and the loudness meter is king. You can't just ignore the loudness figure just 'cos your PPMs don't waggle 'high enough'.
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Old 02-14-2016, 03:09 AM
jackhenri jackhenri is offline
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Default Re: Sorry... yet another loudness query.

thanks so much folks for your responses.
I will continue to endeavor to stick to R128, and I assume it will eventually become second nature (as PPM mixing was) ...

In this case, I've mixed the VO to sit safely < -18LUFS. Unfortunately the advert is basically wall to wall (sped up!) VO. I will sweat it out for a while and try and bring down the mix to hit -23LUFS (+/-0.5).

But will make a final decision based on a mixture of research and common sense.

thanks again



happy mixing..
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  #8  
Old 02-14-2016, 11:30 AM
mr.armadillo mr.armadillo is offline
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Default Re: Sorry... yet another loudness query.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jackhenri View Post
But will make a final decision based on a mixture of research and common sense.
Not sure what you mean by that. Just mix it to R128 like everyone else! THAT is common sense. The whole point of R128 is that stuff sounds subjectively equally loud, no matter what material you mix. This works even better with short-form content. Don't worry that your VO will be too soft, it will sound as loud as the commercial before and after. However, if you compress and limit less, de-ess and don't add aggressive high boosts, you will find out that it will not only sound much better, but have a higher PPM reading too (not that that's of any use).

Last edited by mr.armadillo; 02-14-2016 at 11:52 AM.
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  #9  
Old 02-14-2016, 08:11 PM
coaxmw coaxmw is offline
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Default Re: Sorry... yet another loudness query.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr.armadillo View Post
Not sure what you mean by that. Just mix it to R128 like everyone else! THAT is common sense. The whole point of R128 is that stuff sounds subjectively equally loud, no matter what material you mix. This works even better with short-form content. Don't worry that your VO will be too soft, it will sound as loud as the commercial before and after. However, if you compress and limit less, de-ess and don't add aggressive high boosts, you will find out that it will not only sound much better, but have a higher PPM reading too (not that that's of any use).
Well said, that really is the only common sense thing to do. Just mix to the spec, I think all of us would much rather know how its going to sound leaving our room than rely on the trafficking house to adjust it or possibly kick it back. I pretty much mix spots all day every day and some are dynamic, lots of sound design, quiet moments, some are wall to wall VO, some are so minimal its almost tough to get it up to the spec level, some are just commercially recorded music - which being mastered already, peaks incredibly low but sounds just fine playing next to the other spots - All spots are different but if you mix well to the LUFS number it will all end up fine on the air.
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  #10  
Old 02-16-2016, 04:26 AM
Kuba Pietrzak Kuba Pietrzak is offline
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Default Re: Sorry... yet another loudness query.

R128 spec is, what I call, "content dependent", which means, that you may end up with different PPM readings (and perceived loudness) in several mixes, while having -23LUFS integrated in all of them.

So, if you have a promo ad with dense VO "from wall to wall" and -23LUFS integrated, the PPM reading will be "not so high".

Kuba
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