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  #11  
Old 04-29-2014, 08:18 AM
8dB.co.uk 8dB.co.uk is offline
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Default Re: HDN Thunderbolt & Windows Laptop

So let me get this straight. UA are using FireWire over Thunderbolt, whereas Avid are using PCIe over TB? I've seen inside a HDN-TB box and it's little more than a standard HDN-PCIe card with an alternate connector.
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  #12  
Old 04-29-2014, 09:19 AM
8dB.co.uk 8dB.co.uk is offline
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Default Re: HDN Thunderbolt & Windows Laptop

And sorry if I am really getting the wrong end of the stick, but here's what it seems to me.

Avid it seems are using TB to basically extend PCIe over a cable, bit like a chassis. This seems to me to be the closest to TB's intended use - a daisy chainable hot pluggable PCIe bus.

UA it seems are trying to make an outdated format - FireWire, work over a new connector, to maintain hardware compatibility at their end, and driver compatibility at the host end.

This seems to have mainly come about because a certain manufacturer stopped having FireWire connectors, and now ironically the only machines available with FireWire are Hackintoshes or PCs with Pyro (or nearest equivalent) cards installed.

I'm not sure if it was always intended that TB would carry FW. Do the stock TB to FW adapters have any active circuitry in them, the equivalent of a Pyro card?

From what I read further up this thread, UA are now writing code to properly utilise the PCIe lanes on TB? Shouldn't this have been their priority rather than bodging a fix because one manufacturer decides to move the goalposts?
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  #13  
Old 04-29-2014, 12:56 PM
guitardom guitardom is offline
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Default Re: HDN Thunderbolt & Windows Laptop

Quote:
Originally Posted by 8dB.co.uk View Post
So let me get this straight. UA are using FireWire over Thunderbolt, whereas Avid are using PCIe over TB? I've seen inside a HDN-TB box and it's little more than a standard HDN-PCIe card with an alternate connector.
You are misunderstanding a bit. At the I/O buss different protocols can be accessed including the Firewire, Usb, TB, PCI, etc. This is all internal and not dependant on which "connector" is used. Regardless which protocol is chosen (including PCI or TB), drivers are needed. The problem is that there are no "universal" TB drivers for Windows. Each motherboard dev (Gigabyte, Asus, Etc.) has basically created their own at this point to make it work. Firewire suffered from this exact same thing when it was first introduced to Windows and why it took a couple years for Firewire to catch on in the Windows world and work properly. Since apple has complete control of who creates its Motherboards and OS, implementation is quite simple.

Up till recently UA had been using the Firewire drivers by accessing the Firewire buss (on both Windows and Mac) from Thunderbolt in order to get it going while they wrote new specific drivers for Thunderbolt. They completed this with the release of the UA Apollo twin and updated new drivers for the regular Apollo. Its why the Twin would not work on Windows period and the regular Apollo lost all Windows use from this new driver forward. They never actually supported Windows with the Apollo, but it would work for most users since it was just using the standard Microsoft Firewire driver. UA would not speak on how Avid accomplished getting TB going, but assumed it was a similar approach.

Neil did a piece on it for PTE after we got back from Namm. Sure the thread is still there and would be dated back at early February.
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  #14  
Old 04-29-2014, 01:48 PM
8dB.co.uk 8dB.co.uk is offline
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Default Re: HDN Thunderbolt & Windows Laptop

Avid can only have designed TB into the HDN card from the beginning, requiring only a different connector on the board. That would explain why the TB and PCIe versions are identically priced. Avid have been demoing TB kit on Windows since it was initially launched as LightPeak, so I'm guessing were working closer with Intel than Apple, which is totally understandable.
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  #15  
Old 04-29-2014, 02:38 PM
guitardom guitardom is offline
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Default Re: HDN Thunderbolt & Windows Laptop

Quote:
Originally Posted by 8dB.co.uk View Post
Avid can only have designed TB into the HDN card from the beginning, requiring only a different connector on the board. That would explain why the TB and PCIe versions are identically priced. Avid have been demoing TB kit on Windows since it was initially launched as LightPeak, so I'm guessing were working closer with Intel than Apple, which is totally understandable.
It is a controller in the HDN TB case to change it from PCIE to TB and a different driver created/used from the PCIE version. Once it hits the computer I/O controller it could jump on to any protocol they want. This is normal procedure and nothing implies it had to be "implemented" from the creation of HDN. They do though have to be eating a bit of the extra cost for the HDN TB, which good on them for not charging extra.
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  #16  
Old 04-29-2014, 05:08 PM
8dB.co.uk 8dB.co.uk is offline
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Default Re: HDN Thunderbolt & Windows Laptop

That would apply if there were a HDN-TB driver for Windows. However, HDN-TB is working on Windows which would suggest that it is using the PCIe driver, which would in turn surely suggest that the TB connection is transparent?
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  #17  
Old 04-29-2014, 06:54 PM
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JCBigler JCBigler is offline
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Default Re: HDN Thunderbolt & Windows Laptop

I'm a bit confused. Since Thunderbolt is proprietary to Intel chipsets, wouldn't the driver come from Intel, rather than the motherboard manufacturers? Or are there different implementations of the Thunderbolt protocol?
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  #18  
Old 04-29-2014, 11:14 PM
guitardom guitardom is offline
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Default Re: HDN Thunderbolt & Windows Laptop

Quote:
Originally Posted by 8dB.co.uk View Post
That would apply if there were a HDN-TB driver for Windows. However, HDN-TB is working on Windows which would suggest that it is using the PCIe driver, which would in turn surely suggest that the TB connection is transparent?
The drivers are all wrapped in the single HDN hardware driver installer for both versions of the hardware. We have no way of really knowing how they implemented it. One of those things that should be invisible to us if done right!
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  #19  
Old 04-29-2014, 11:19 PM
guitardom guitardom is offline
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Default Re: HDN Thunderbolt & Windows Laptop

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Originally Posted by JCBigler View Post
I'm a bit confused. Since Thunderbolt is proprietary to Intel chipsets, wouldn't the driver come from Intel, rather than the motherboard manufacturers? Or are there different implementations of the Thunderbolt protocol?
There are different implementations, but the standard version for consumer use is the electrical version and then there is an optical version for more high end use. Intel does supply the driver for it at the hardware level (accessed through the bios), it is at the OS/software level where the issues are.
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  #20  
Old 04-10-2015, 07:11 PM
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Default Re: HDN Thunderbolt & Windows Laptop

At this date, is there anybody out there that is successfully using a Windows 7 based HD system with the HDN Thunderbolt interface?

I have a Lenovo W540 laptop with built in Thunderbolt interface, 32GB RAM, I7 4-cores, and would like to be able to possibly go mobile with PT HD11.

Thanks.
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