We need a Thunderbolt HDX system

[froyo]

Hello. Electrox I am trying to understand what the practical use of what you are talking about. I think you yourself noted that if you need to record, most of the time you still are going to use the TDM (HDX) system, so that leaves editing and mixing. I am still trying to understand in which instances, other than emergencies, I would do a professional editing or mixing gig in a portable setup on my laptop.

For many reasons, but the big one that has been pointed out already by others is monitoring. You still need a dedicated room with acoustic treatment and isolation and a good set of professional monitors, professional cabling, clean power, etc. By the time you get done with all that, really the $10K or so extra you would spend on a TDM or HDX system is kind of peanuts in comparison. I would not consider doing a professional gig on headphones in a noisy environment for two main reasons. Number one, they would not be anywhere near as reliable as monitors in a decent room and number two in the long run it poses a serious threat to your hearing to have loud headphones on all day.

Maybe I am misunderstanding the point you are making, but are you saying that the 'future' involves audio engineers editing and mixing with laptops and headphones at the beach/mall/coffeehouse? Or is it strictly that you think Digidesign should make a hardware box with DSP included? Please clarify.

[Electrox]

For the past 2 years I have been recording sessions using a backpack (a well designed laptop bag), the Macbook Pro, and a Mac Air. I have stuck a few short cords, an interface, 2 mics, guitar cord, portable keyboard, a few USB cords, and an extension cord all in this backpack. I have realized that I was getting more done on these two laptops than I was on my TDM Avid system because, well, I always had the setup with me! The drag about the system is the little lags one gets in the native environment verses the TDM one. The other is the concerns about DSP native usage verses the TDM card-in-slot solutions. These are the age old debates I have seen for the 22 years I have been using Digidesign's products (ouch! I am old!). This system may not be best for tracking bands, but I have two dedicated systems built to do that. For everything else, though, I have been using the laptops more and more. I do a lot of sessions where I go somewhere, set up a closet, back room, whatever, close mic the person, and record. The room doesn't have to be pristine to SOUND pristine. This opened my recording world up greatly. Now I want to mix these tracks using DSP TDM quality plug ins, which will all soon be out of date (again) as Avid moves their systems forwards. Will I have to lock myself up back in my studio to do this? What if I am in LA doing a session? My studio is in NYC! I have just ordered the Retina display Macbook Pro. I want the best front end for that laptop. I do not want to buy cards and Magma and wait for Avid's blessing that the system is "approved". This is all nuts at this point. It defeats the whole purpose of what Steve Jobs wanted when he pushed through what became Thunderbolt. More to the point, Avid showed an interface tied by Thunderbolt a year or two ago. They know there is a movement towards laptop production. I just think the users should be aware that this is a GREAT way to work. Overdub - anywhere! Mix, anywhere! Take out the laptop, tie any TV to the HDMI output to get a second monitor (hotel room), solid set of headphones or in-ears, and go!
The Mac Pro update will be given to the world when Intel puts Thunderbolt and USB 3.0 in their server-strength chips. Apple will (hopefully) create a rack mount machine that you can slide your Avid cards into. But I digress again! This is not the future for me! I no longer want to be tied to that way of working! I'd rather want to keep the freedom of this portable system I have, without having to string up 30 pieces of gear to make it run! As I mention before, other companies get this and are addressing these needs. Avid as of yet has not.
And I still haven't even mentioned the possibilities of live recording in clubs and the fact that there are more struggling bands out there that would use these systems if they were easy enough to carry with them and set up at a show. Who's going to bring a full Avid system to a Saturday night gig in a NYC bar? But I have seen a lot of shows being recorded using competing products. There is a trend that is happening here...

[WernerF]

You're still ignoring one of Froyo's main points. Mixing on headphones is not an optimum circumstance. You're gonna F up your ears and you are gonna be hard pressed to have any kind of real world perspective that comes from having alternate listening opportunities that come as a result of having speakers in a good sounding room to listen to. I would never send a mix out to my clients that has been done exclusively on headphones. No way.

[Emcha_audio]

Originally Posted by WernerF

You're still ignoring one of Froyo's main points. Mixing on headphones is not an optimum circumstance. You're gonna F up your ears and you are gonna be hard pressed to have any kind of real world perspective that comes from having alternate listening opportunities that come as a result of having speakers in a good sounding room to listen to. I would never send a mix out to my clients that has been done exclusively on headphones. No way.

He's been ignoring that point for a while now

Originally Posted by Emcha_audio

Not to mention the sound level problems that would arise from all those people talking, laughing, train noise etc.

Originally Posted by Emcha_audio

I've noticed you said that you weren't going to be held off by boxes. So you're going to mix on the go, sure.. with headphones (cause obviously you wont bring studio grade monitors with you on the beach since you don't want to be tied up to big boxes right?).. err....in places that are potentially very noisy, busy and cramped...errrr.

[WernerF]

Good point.

[froyo]

Hello. Well Electrox as WernerF and Emcha_audio pointed out, you didn't actually address the points we brought up about monitoring. But I think I am understanding better what you are saying. This is the way you want to work now and in the future, it's what you like and what works for you. That's fine, and more power to you.

By the way, I have used a portable laptop recording system to record location audio for video/film projects and that's worked out great. But that is a very specific gig that already requires a portable recording system. And I have also heard and seen people that have racked up a TDM system to record location audio. My point being that I am not opposed to the idea of a portable laptop recording system, it has its place, for example the one you mentioned about recording live music. But again, those are gigs that by definition are already demanding a portable recording setup.

But I think it has many problems associated with it for just about every other recording/editing/mixing gig. And the one point I really want to underline is that you are running a major risk of hurting your ears if you are going to be using loud headphones for hours and hours, day after day after day. I wish you luck with that, but it really is a danger.

[Electrox]

I have a surround system consisting of 5 Adam S3As and an Adam Sub10. I have 2 sets of Ultimate Ear molded ear plugs, one is the Capitol reference monitors, which I prefer, and the second is their high end thing which I use less often. I have Skull Candy "Heavy Medal" plugs which makes my iPhone rock! I take monitoring very seriously. The Adams are easy to move (well, two of them at least), but I prefer to premix using the UE and a pair of Sennheiser reference headphones (like the old mono ref mixes of old?) and then check the mixes back on the Adams when I get a chance to be back at the studio. Most of my work is being done on a laptop, but not all. I did an AB test on many of the "best" reference speakers years ago, I prefer the ribbon Adams. Your mileage may vary.
I don't understand why any of you think that the music inside the headphones would be any louder, or more damaging, than speakers. That's for another thread, I think.
Like I said before, I have created a portable way of working that works for me. I just would like better tools!

[froyo]

Hello. The reason we bring up the dangers of headphones is that in order for anyone to be able to a decent job of editing or mixing in a loud environment like the beach or a mall or a coffeehouse, etc. you have to be louder than your environment. That only makes sense right? And the fact is that no one should monitor at loud levels in a studio either. Maybe a minute or two to check your mixes but overall levels should be kept comfortable and safe for your ears.

In a studio environment you don't to turn up things very loud because things are quiet to begin with. But even if your choice was monitoring loud in a control room or monitoring loud with headphones, the choice would always be a room. Headphones are doing much more damage because it's such a direct, enclosed path.

Look all I am saying is that if you enjoy working outside of a studio environment and you can somehow get the work done, good for you, whatever makes you happy. But I think you understand the point that in order to do audio in loud environments you'll have to turn your headphones up loud. And that is dangerous if you are going to do it day in, day out for a long time.

[Electrox]

Have you ever tried molded in-ear plugs? If they work for major rock bands on stage at 140 db, they should be ok at a mall at 95db! But seriously, they block the outside world so hear what you need to. Off topic, but probably important...

[Emcha_audio]

Originally Posted by Electrox

Have you ever tried molded in-ear plugs? If they work for major rock bands on stage at 140 db, they should be ok at a mall at 95db! But seriously, they block the outside world so hear what you need to. Off topic, but probably important...

I have on stage with my band, and with the bands I have done the sound for.

You should not mix for more than 3 hours and a half at 95 db, without taking a break, 4 hours at 80 db. At 140 db, the persons actually can becomes def instantaneously even your vocal chords starts to vibrate. 130 db is the threshold of pain. It's recommended to wear earplugs to block the ambient sound at 85db in a work space, because at prolonged exposure at that level can cause hearing damage. 100 db in a headphones is enough to cause permanent hearing damage after 15 minutes.

So trust me, no one is going to have 140 db in stage earphones blasting in their ears, your signer would be rolling on the floor in pain instead of signing, in fact the hole reason to have those, is that the sound level in the earphones doesn't need to be high at all.

And it's not because it's loud enough, that it's good enough to give you a good close to flat frequency response that you need to be able to do mixing.