Still no surround in LE?

[sidereal-studios]

I definitely feel for the facilities that are struggling. It seems another one's shutting down or scaling back every week these days. Another problem is that engineers, producers, and supervisors build their reputation with the name of the studio, but with things changing so rapidly and business being so inconsistent it's tough for a unit (people+facility) to build a reliable reputation and succeed.

Having said that, I don't think the direction things are going is bad in terms of content, more that they're bad for the status quo. If you think about it from the perspective of a filmmaker or videographer, it gives them flexibility in budgets. There are a lot of great ideas out there that can't be made because the economics of it make independent production cost-prohibitive. But if you look at the cost of gear reducing the way it is, there's a great opportunity for other voices to be heard. If you apply it to sound in particular, say there's the guy in the basement with his 002 mixing what could be the next great documentary on the cheap. It's still up to his talent and knowledge to make it sound good. Quality is still quality.

What I'm saying is that anytime economics works toward rather than against more opportunities for art to see the light of day, the better it is for everyone. Well, everyone except the big-budget facilities that is.

Now, there are absolutely things that a major post facility can do that the smaller studios can't. If the budget can handle it, that kind of high-end work is available. From a business aspect, I think these facilities should also look into investing in LE systems so that they can still do this small-scale kind of work, and make the business more flexible. Maybe hire some hot-shot young engineers at a lower pay scale, charge less, and everyone benefits. It's simple business 101. I know there's rent to pay and enormous expenses, but it definitely offers more flexibility and more opportunity to survive and keep working.

Bringing this back to surround in LE... Having an extra feature in software isn't going to be the deal breaker for anyone. If that were true than things are on far more fragile ground than anyone's admitting. Seems to me, as has been suggested, the major facilities will still have what the smaller studios don't - great acoustics, flexibility, reputation, predictability, on and on...

[Chris Lambrechts]

dual feelings come up when I read this. Sad feelings because I agree with Richard's and Marti's post but also happy feelings because finally it's good to see you post guys are waking up to reality. It might help you understand what has been happening to us music guys over the last decade.

Now, what are you going to do about it ? The music industry clearly missed it's chance. I sincerely hope it's not too late for you guys.

[dr sound]

Just to clear a few things up, I understand both sides better than most of you think. At "The Dub Stage" Pro Tools has enabled me to be very competitive and with the tools to do a better job than many/all other much higher priced rooms in town. What you also have to understand is that "Pro Tools' is a buzz word just like digital used to be. The problem is LE is a fraction of the cost of what I've assembled in a great room (at least everyone who has left mixing here has said) yet Producers say ""This guy has Pro Tools (LE) and he is only charging X$'s an hour. Why are you so much more? I know the difference but they don't. The fact that LE cannot do surround (easily) is one small advantage that I have left. The others are mixing experience and a room to cater to their sonic needs.
If it all goes and follows the Music worlds footsteps like it has done in the past, in 10 years Post will be in very poor shape. Add to that the ability to Pirate Movie downloads at tremendous speeds then it will be the end of Post as we know it. Since most of you haven't worked in Post for over half your lifetime like some of us have the changes would not be so apparent. I thank God everyday for the job that I love. Let's hope that job will be there in the future for some of you!

[cmaynes]

I think this thread is getting tired-

The reason the condition suck so mightily in the post sound market is multi-faceted

First- One could say that the studios have gotten geedier- they do not pay as much as they once did. Well, this is kind of true, but if you know anyone who has worked on a Bruckheimer film, ask him what he made during the course of the dub.

The very tip-top strata of film re-recording mixer make MONSTER bucks. SO I guess the industry has not slid for them...

Second- The corporatisation of the film post industry- Just how many companies are now either Ascent or Technicolor owned?


As to Marti's issue, he is dead right- It is damn hard to run a good independent shop. But, if that is the road taken it can have it's rewards- especially my favorite- saying "NO". It is the price of control-

As to LE having surround, I could care less- It will not impact me at all- I need a mack truck to do my bidding, not a nissan pickup.

And since there have been alternatives (Nuendo) I would recommend them to those who think they need them.

I wanted to add this also-

For whatever audio endeavor you are doing, obviously appropriate gear is required- For post sound mixing, stuff like Dolby Encode decode, extra fancy meters, etc are required- If someone wants to mix outside a stage I guess that's OK- I mean it seemed to work for Farenheit 9/11, but Gary Rizzo is a talented guy who usually does things in more traditional ways.

but what most people do not know is that Post sound delivery requirements are generally much more complex than music. It requires both gear and time to do the job professionally. People like Marti do the job right- they have the gear required and they continue to work-

It seems that really the core issue a bit semantic- MOST people using LE are not doing so to finish stuff- If you can get by with it great- but if you are doing stuff that disallows that, well buy the appropriate tool for the job.

charles maynes

[Branko]

I think the discussion leads into conclusion that ProTools is just a part of a setup of a post production system. If you calculate the cost of a dub stage, you'll see that most money wasn't spent for Protools, but for room acoustics, monitoring, CP650, reverbs, projection etc.
The thing is: if someone tries to cut expenses of one part of the system, it is reasonable to expect he'll try to cut on everything else, which leeds to a facility with less then ideal conditions for serious work. You wouldn't buy 3-way JBL cinema speakers and connect a LE system on the other end.
I find myself more and more often in a situation where a producer comes to my studio asking if they could just "run through Dolby" something that was mixed in someone's kitchen or garage. So far, I'm able to refuse these "jobs". Not sure about the future, though...
Branko

[blue demon]

I was going to mention the whole music industry thing, but some of you already have.


I deal with people every day that manage to scrape up enough gear for less than $10K to make a feature. Yeah, it's not great, but it's a way for someone to be able to make a feature. A way that they would not have had 10 to 15 years ago (even less, probably). What you bigger guys DON'T understand (or maybe you do) is that me being able to mix in surround will NEVER cut into your business. Why? Because there will always be people at the low end of the price spectrum that need surround work done that will never be able to afford a real mix stage, and it's great if people like me can do it. Sure, it may not be the best surround mix, but the picture isn't the best, the acting isn't the best...not that I'm willing to settle for less than what I'm capable of. The point is, now that people can make movies for way less money than in the past, they can't afford the bigger, and yes, way nicer facilities. However, there are still tons of big budget movies being made. Do you honestly think that if I have an LE system that can mix in surround, I'm gonna get the next Ridley Scott picture? I seriously doubt it. Also, for most of us at the level I'm currently at, we are learning tons of new stuff every day. I would love to be able to learn how to mix in surround MYSELF, and not have to watch someone else do it. If I make a mistake, no biggie. All the projects I've done have been learning experiences for everyone involved. You see, for me, it's about each project I do being better and better, and adjusting my rate accordinglly. I've managed to increase my rate on every single project I've done....which is great for me, and my fellow sound designers. I don't want to whore myself out, that just hurts everyone in the long run. My wife and two kids don't think it's too bad either. I have plans to get an HD3 rig, in my own facility, because that's how it's done right, and I understand the points that Marti and Richard make. However, just because I spent less money on my rig that you did does not mean I'm not capable of quality work. Don't ever think that. That is just elitism.

I really don't think it's sad the way the post industry is going. The people that shared that same mentality in the music world shut their studios down. It's the studios that constantly change, and adapt to the industry that stay afloat. I'm not trying to put people out of business, and I certainly hope nobody tries to put me out of business...but business is business. Don't be pissed at me, or any other of us low budg guys because we are getting work. There are a lot of up and coming sound designers out there, and sometimes I get a feeling of animocity towards us from the folks that have been around for a while, and I don't know why that is. I've seen it happen on more than one occasion.



-BD

[cmaynes]

Blue Demon-


I support your position entirely.

It is quite obvious as well that you understand where Marti, et-al are coming from.
I have always considered our end of the business to be somewhat utilitarian. Sort of like being a carpenter if you will-
The best carpenters tend to have the best tools, for them it can really make a difference. If I do carpentry (a skill of which I am lacking I might add), I make do with whatever I have in most cases-

However, If I am doing film sound- I use my own tools which allow me to do the best work I can.

Good Luck!

And I might add- I was doing surround work (as well as many who contribute to this forum) for many years before even TDM had surround capabilities. It can be done, but not as easily as TDM permits.


charles maynes

[Richard Fairbanks]

Well, we're all correct. No doubt that LE will have surround soon enough. The feature will mean almost nothing to me, either. Heck, hook on a MOJO and toss in about a hundred more tracks while we're at it. The lure of cheap technology cannot be stopped. That lure is a very strong contributor to the increasing stratification of our industry. Put reasonably good tools in everyone's hands and two things happen. The average level of workmanship declines (because of the dilution of talent), and the whole process comes to be viewed as a commodity.

Speaking of commodities, that is what Pro Tools has become. It seems like everyone’s got one. Those of us who continue to work do so because people trust us to get the job done right. It takes more than Pro Tools! I just shake my head in wonder that there is so much conviction that nothing else is required. My original point was that more and more producers share this conviction with many in our profession. How can so many be so wrong? I can be sad, can't I?

About the only good I can make of it is that I can now hire freelancers for the same rate but not provide them a place to work. My HVAC costs will drop dramatically.

If the thread was already tired, it must be exhausted by now.

[cmaynes]

Richard in regards to your great post-


Thank God that you can't (yet) go to Guitar Center or where-ever and drop a grand on a box of "Experience"
There are some producers who are blind to that (thankfully I rarely have to deal with them) but most of them are less budget sensitve than you would think- All they are concerned with is making their release date, and turning the chequebook off.

Audio post for films' budget is generally such a small piece of the pie that even though producers complain, it is always handy to mention the old axiom- :There is never enough money to do it right, but there is always enough to do again"


charles maynes

[Brandonx1]

Okay, this is the thing. It's the cook not the kitchen. Surround in LE, I think, would only boost the sales of Pro Tools TDM. Younger mixers would own LE and learn how to use the tool. Then when he gets a gig and needs the fire power, buys a TDM rig. You just can't mix a show with a native PT rig yet. If a business is considering the price of TDM VS LE, then they aren't pro and don't have competetive mix engineers.
Peace,
Brandon