Still no surround in LE?

[kperry]

Hi all-
I was going to call Digi Presales with this, but it's after 3pm Friday (wish I got to go home at 3 on Fridays!) and Mother Digi is closed.
Is there still no surround mixer in LE? I've been dealing with TDM systems for quite a while, and couldn't find mention of surround in the LE products, even with DV Toolkit...
Thanks-

[Eric L]

Nope, nada, zilch. Much to the dismay of many.

[dr sound]

Poster: Eric L
Subject: Re: Still no surround in LE?

Nope, nada, zilch. Much to the dismay of many.

dr sound replies:
Or to the satisfaction of those of us who spent our money on HD3 Acell systems

[cmaynes]

I actually think digi should allow LE to have that capability- It would surely sell more HD systems.



charles maynes

[Eric L]

Hey Marti,

I hear you. I can understand the anxiety of some when the thought of surround mixing becomes the norm in the convenience of ones home.

Having heard your stage, The Dub Stage, I can safely say that you should have nothing to worry about by the ability for surround in LE. You have a first class facility and the talent to use it.

I'm finishing up some pre-dubs for a Sci Fi show this weekend that I also designed the creature sounds for. I wish I had the ability to design in surround at home. I'd know right away if it's working or not. I can not justify the expense of an HD system for surround sound and then a whole lot of extra power, that I just do not need at home.

I'm looking forward to seeing you next Sat at the CAS event. We can chat more about it then.

[blue demon]

I think it's absurd that Digi does not support surround in LE. I can understand that they want to have different levels of systems depending on your financial situation, but for crying out loud, if logic pro 7 supports surround mixing, if's freaking stupid that LE doesn't. I'm sure it's just a matter of them turning something on in the software to allow for it. And please, give me more than 32 tracks. Gimme 50! Please! I'm tired of running out of tracks. There is no reason there should be a track count limitation of 32 tracks in LE. My machine is definitely powerful enough to handle it. For cryin' out loud, if Nuendo can do over 100 tracks native, LE can. Really, there should just be one Pro Tools. Pro Tools "E". The "E" stands for everyone because everyone will be able to afford it. Don't have different versions, just one, like Nuendo. Hell, maybe I should just buy Nuendo...of course, I like Pro Tools better, so Digi has me by the balls, and they know it. It's a love hate relationship. I love my system. I hate what I paid for it. I love digi's service department (they turned my 002R lightning fast...AND paid for next day shipping), but I hate being on hold for YEARS with tech support.


Marti, I don't think that us LE folks being able to mix in surround in our little home studios would EVER be a threat to a real stage like what you have. It would just be nice for us to be able to do it for those projects that want a surround mix, but have really low budgets, and can't afford to go to a real stage to do it. The project I'm working on is one of those low budget things.



-BD

[sidereal-studios]

Why not just offer surround mixing with the DV Toolkit? At least that would justify the $1,000 cost.

[Richard Fairbanks]

I agree with Marti.

I do not blame any manufacturer for trying to sell as much product as they can. That is their game. That is the march of progress. I AM bitter about the effects of cheap technology on MY business. The fact that every producer and every student can buy amazing capabilities for an exceptionally modest price has empowered them. That's nice. It has simultaneously forever altered the pricing of the professional audio market. Many producers can no longer "find" the money in their budgets for quality audio post. Why? The cash can be found, but they can always find someone with a Pro Tools system at home who is willing to mix. That's not to say you cannot do quality work at home, but without predictable acoustics and a proper work layout, you cannot provide your best every time. The producers know, deep inside, that they may not get quite the top level of work that they once did, but they generally do not care. If you can get 85% of the quality you had before, but for 40% of the price, which choice would you make? If the producers do the audio work themselves, even better!

In the long view, the post production market I know is being killed off. Without enough money spent to keep acoustically happy and predictable facilities and mixing stages open, they are slowly going away. With them, ADR rooms, Foley pits, large recording spaces are going away. We'll probably have to kill them off entirely before anyone figures out what value they had to begin with. Personally, I don't want to mix at home but I'm beginning to realize that is what is happening now, and that is what will become normal. Now, I see people editing and mixing at home, going "out of house" only for voice recording and Foley, and laybacks because they can't afford tape decks either. Their sound libraries are all the same, because they are mostly copied from the facilities they used to work for. I guess they cannot afford those, either. Come to think of it, some of them are still working in OS9. We all know why (that cannot afford plugins either, apparently).

I want cheaper technology, too. I also want the quality of my work to improve, or at least stay on a par, with each technology change. There is a lot more to it than the capabilities of Pro Tools. Unfortunately, producers (and some sound editors) who have not experienced the value of a complete facility vs. a powerful laptop will not understand.

As for the capabilities of LE vs. TDM, it is the LE owners who want surround. I doubt most TDM owners want LE to provide surround. It doesn't matter, though, because it will happen soon enough. Marti's stage may be the best in Hollywood but that does not alter the business trends.

It makes me mad. It makes me sad. Comments welcomed.

[dr sound]

Richard,
Your post should be a "sticky"! I know first hand what you describes is "exactly" what is happening. I don't care "what Logic 7" or "Nuendo" does! If it works for you then get it. Just stop coming here wanting everything cheaper and cheaper. Hell they’re people who won't spend $300 or so dollars to buy Richards "Syncheck" box because it's too much money. They don't even know what sync is!!! This business is turned out to be full of wannabees willing to do anything (especially undercut to the point of undermining the business) just to get a job. Producers aren't stupid. They see places like "Craig’s List" and see people willing to work for free just for a credit. Now let's get a laptop, Mix in Surround, do it anywhere and charge them a few bucks an hour. The bar is being lowered everyday and people just don't realize what they are doing to help bring it down. Reality TV is a very good example. Down and dirty is becoming the norm.
Thanks again Richard for pointing out the true state of the industry. An Industry where people are making more money turning out students from "sound schools" for non existing jobs then the jobs themselves!. There are only so many TV shows and Movies etc being made and the cheap workforce is many times the amount of potential work out there. Don’t get me wrong, I too had to start at the bottom and work my ass off. It just seems that we now all want it right now and for the least amount of money possible.

[froyo]

Hello. I feel I have to chime in here, not to disagree, but more to put things in perspective and balance things a little I believe.

First off, surround can be done with LE. It's just a pain in the butt and hardly ideal. But it can be done. It just depends on what is required and how much time can be dedicated.

I agree with Richard's and the Doctor's comments, wholeheartedly, 100%. If you check back with the Video Editor's rant we had a few months back you will see that I raised some of those very exact, same points.

However, I do feel we should put things in perspective. First off, couldn't we say those same things about digital technology across the board? Why stop with LE? TDM Pro Tools also undercut an entire industry and lowered the price point needed for entry. And with that came the obligatory lowering of the quality of the work. So the same things that are being said about LE, are attributable to Pro Tools TDM and DAW technology at large. It changed the industry. In many cases not for the better.

Also, aren't we talking about tools here in the final analysis? It's up to the professional to decide how to use the tools. An inexpensive $60 microphone can be used just as professionaly in a multimillion dollar project the same way a $5000 microphone can. I distinctly remember several professional post houses using AMIII card based Pro Tools systems back before LE split the Pro Tools line, simply because the other systems were overkill. These were professional houses.

Skywalker Ranch has a lot of LE systems they use to edit. If I understand the workflow they used for EP III, they did a lot of pre mixing as they cut. If the Mix magazine article on EP III is accurate they are somewhat committed to mixing as they edit. 5.1 capabilities would be ideal for them and I am sure they would gladly welcome a 5.1 capable LE system. In instances like these, these large editorial houses have a professional need for a tool to meet that job requirement. I am sure the Doctor and Richard themselves could find a professional use for a 5.1 LE system within their current setup. At the very least, they can recognize where such a set up could be used by professionals in a professional setting.

So again, let's balance things a little bit and put things in perspective. Yes digital technology has brought prices down allowing more people access to professional tools. Yes, this inevitably has had an adverse effect on professionalism and quality throughout the entire industry, all aspects not just audio. But ultimately these are simply tools that can be used by professionals in professional situations.

I have used an LE setup many, many times to capture audio on location. That way I can skip the transfer necessary form a tape or hard disk based system. I can then hand off a Pro Tools session for post, ready to go, all you need is picture. Does that make me unprofessional? Does that lower the bar? Am I cannibalizing anybody's work? No. I am a professional using a tool at my disposal. If I had 5.1 abilities on LE, I would definitely use those, in a professional setting. What's the problem?

Digidesign has walked a fine line, inexplicably in my opinion, since they introduced the LE line. As we remember, before then, one could have a Pro Tools system based around an AMIII card. The software was the same. When they introduced LE, they came in direct competition with flagship products from other companies. Which is an intrinsically unfair competition, which is to say, there is no competition, nothing to compare.

From day one the LE line has been underfeatured and overpriced when compared to the other companies' flagship products. The only fair comparison, strictly in terms of features, is TDM Pro Tools. But as we know, Pro Tools Limited Edition, emphasis on LIMITED, has gone face to face with other complete software products. It's an unfair comparison. Despite of this, amazingly and contrary to any common sense of marketplace economics, LE has won this competition. An underfeatured product that limits the user in many ways outsells complete offerings from other companies, offerings that are just as good as Pro Tools TDM.

Whether this competition was what Digidesign intended or not, it is definitely a reality however. So if a professional wants to use a full featured software, they have many choices. They can use other software to work on features. There is no law that I know of that says only TDM Pro Tools can be used for work, and any other software used can only be done by wanna be, cheapskate unprofessional amateurs. Nuendo was used for DeLovely. Was that an unprofessional product? Did that cannibalize work? Did that lower the quality level in the industry?

So as we stand here, Digidesign can decide if they ever want to add these features to LE. The marketplace and time will tell. We didn't have a Timecode timeline before, but a lot of professional work was done, and is done today with those tools. Whether they intended it or not, LE is in competition with other tools that have a much more, complete professional feature list. Tools that can be used by professionals in professional settings.

These are tools in the final analysis.