No Pro Tools 13 for me unfortunately.

[ShiftStudios]

Originally Posted by yoerik roevens

as not to hijack this thread too much, here's a minimal list of highlights: (there`s more where those came from...)

A) physical design:
- ridiculous placement of sel buttons (in itself terrible enough to not even bother about the rest anymore)
- bad placement of knobs and lcds. my S3 is standing at about 50° degrees in order to be able to read the lcds
- totally useless touch strip with a terrible response, best to disable as one constantly hits it by accident

B) functionality:
- no visual feedback on automation modes (biggest showstopper IMO)
- poor knob behavior (no fine tuning, not linear/convenient) (http://duc.avid.com/showthread.php?t=365004&page=1)
- many many bugs where S3 layout is (partly) lost/not remembered, including:
- S3 layout resetting whenever you drag a clip from outside PT into PT
- VCA spill not recalling the last setting in (standard) Multi-Master Mode
- sends resetting to send A when spilling a VCA
- channels exiting trim mode after writing send automation when trim is not included in send mode

- terrible banking. many issues with edit/mix window follows banking etc...
- poor fader resolution (hardware/software?)
- softkey color coding not working
- no access to memlocs
- I/O routing config not suited for larger sessions
- no eq/compressor only cycling
- ...

IMO at least all of the above should have been noticed and addressed before beta-testing. However, over 1 year after it`s release, we, the users, are still alpha testing this debacle.

Well, I've been using an S3 for almost a year now and can say I've got what I expected. In fact, my upgrade from my Artist Series controls to this surface was a pleasure. I'm not even sure what some of those complaints are so I'd like to ask for clarification on some points. And while I agree this isn't really OT for the thread title; which is really just whinging; I would like to address these issues as I don't think it's fair that someone is calling the S3 junk just because they bought a piece of hardware that wasn't suitable for thier needs.

To address all of your points:

A) physical design:
- ridiculous placement of sel buttons (in itself terrible enough to not even bother about the rest anymore) I honestly don't have a problem with this, and the only people I've heard complain about it are people with coordination problems.
- bad placement of knobs and lcd's. my S3 is standing at about 50° degrees in order to be able to read the lcd's You must have your S3 up pretty high, I've got mine on the desk and can read it fine.
- totaly useless touch strip with terrible response, best to disable as one constantly hits it by accident I have yet to hit it by accident, but I agree it's not terribly useful, especially since I also have the ipad next to it for most of those functions.

B) functionality:
- no visual feedback on automation modes (biggest showstopper imo) Can you please clarify what you mean on this?
- poor knob behavior (no fine tuning, not linear/convenient) (http://duc.avid.com/showthread.php?t=365004&page=1) Agree it's annoying sometimes, but certainly not unusable as I use my ears for adjustments when using the control surface. If I want "fine" adjustments, I can flip to faders.
- many many bugs where S3 layout is (partly) lost/not remembered, including:
- S3 layout resetting whenever you drag a clip from outside PT into PT Haven't noticed this as I keep my edit/mix stages separate.
- VCA spill not recalling last setting in (standard) Multi-Master Mode Can you clarify what you mean here? I use VCA spill regularly and get the behavior I'm expecting.
- sends resetting to send A when spilling a VCA Again, never bothered me.
- channels exiting trim mode after writing send automation when trim is not included in send mode Need some clarification on this.

- terrible banking. many issues with edit/mix window follows banking etc... Have not found this. Used to get this when using Artist Series plugged into a switch, but I use the S3 plugged directly into the ethernet on my Mac Pro.
- poor fader resolution (hardware/software?) I have found it very precise, how much more resolution do you need? If you're talking about 100th of a dB adjustment, I just don't see the actual value in that...
- softkey colour coding not working ??? What does this mean? Color LEDs display as expected.
- no access to memlocs This is a tad annoying I agree, but I have a keyboard as well, so not a showstopper.
- I/O routing config not suited for larger sessions Are you talking specifically about using the S3 as an Audio interface not being suited for large sessions? If so I do not use it as an interface and therefore have no experience with this.
- no eq/compressor only cycling I am able to select and modify all parameters of all the plugins I use (AVID/Waves/UAD), so I am not sure what you are getting at here...

What is sounds like is you were expecting S6 functionality at the price point of an S3. The option for this is to get the Dock as well as it works in tandem with the S3. Do that and you're still cheaper than an S6. Alternatively, it sounds like you may have bought the S3 before reading up on it first to make sure it did the things you wanted it to do. This is similar to buying a Volvo and being mad that it's not as fast as a Ferrari...

[LDS]

Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson

Actually they earned that title by being first in a field where they had almost no competition for 20 years. In my opinion their marketing has never been very impressive but it didn't need to be. If you want to get a job as an employee, you need to know Pro Tools.

Thus far nobody has come up with anything enough better to inspire experienced users to switch so it remains our real industry standard warts and all.

That may well speak more about experienced users than other DAWs though. Humans are incredibly fickle, habitual creatures like that.

[yoerik]

Originally Posted by ShiftStudios

Well, I've been using an S3 for almost a year now and can say I've got what I expected. In fact, my upgrade from my Artist Series controls to this surface was a pleasure. I'm not even sure what some of those complaints are so I'd like to ask for clarification on some points. And while I agree this isn't really OT for the thread title; which is really just whinging; I would like to address these issues as I don't think it's fair that someone is calling the S3 junk just because they bought a piece of hardware that wasn't suitable for thier needs.

To address all of your points:

A) physical design:
- ridiculous placement of sel buttons (in itself terrible enough to not even bother about the rest anymore) I honestly don't have a problem with this, and the only people I've heard complain about it are people with coordination problems.Are you saying you can consistently select channels, e.g. in preview mode, without accidentaly touching adjacent faders ? You must have awesome coordination dude! Looking at the s3 threads many people can't. Or do you not realize how touching a fader accidentaly in preview mode can screw up all settings you made so far?
- bad placement of knobs and lcd's. my S3 is standing at about 50° degrees in order to be able to read the lcd's You must have your S3 up pretty high, I've got mine on the desk and can read it fine. don't know how youuse it, but again read the s3 threads
- totaly useless touch strip with terrible response, best to disable as one constantly hits it by accident I have yet to hit it by accident, but I agree it's not terribly useful, especially since I also have the ipad next to it for most of those functions. have you found any use for them? How do you go about transport and moving around your session? I have a transport for that, but even the 1.5k Digi003 which was a console and an interface had a jog and shuttle wheel.

B) functionality:
- no visual feedback on automation modes (biggest showstopper imo) Can you please clarify what you mean on this? The s£ dos not indicate whether a track is in touch/latch/trim mode. You haven't bothered/noticed that? Are you using automation at all? This is pretty much essential for a console. Imagine a 300 track session, where you have to look for a track in your mix/edit window every single time you want to automate it. This costs about at least 1 hour every single day.
- poor knob behavior (no fine tuning, not linear/convenient) (http://duc.avid.com/showthread.php?t=365004&page=1) Agree it's annoying sometimes, but certainly not unusable as I use my ears for adjustments when using the control surface. If I want "fine" adjustments, I can flip to faders. 1) that's a workaround 2) that leaves 32 knobs pretty much unusuable. 3) it limits your console from using 16 encoders, e.g. 2 plugins and 16 faders to just 16 faders 4) although flip faders can be useful for some parameters, it's far more natural, intuitive and precise for certain common plug-ins like eq's and compressors to control them with knobs. Keep in mind knobs are continous controllers while faders have a fixed min and max and their scaling behaves differently.
- many many bugs where S3 layout is (partly) lost/not remembered, including:
- S3 layout resetting whenever you drag a clip from outside PT into PT Haven't noticed this as I keep my edit/mix stages separate.
- VCA spill not recalling last setting in (standard) Multi-Master Mode Can you clarify what you mean here? I use VCA spill regularly and get the behavior I'm expecting. http://duc.avid.com/showthread.php?t=388158
- sends resetting to send A when spilling a VCA Again, never bothered me. seems like you're not using much of those features anyway
- channels exiting trim mode after writing send automation when trim is not included in send mode Need some clarification on this.http://duc.avid.com/showthread.php?t=388493

- terrible banking. many issues with edit/mix window follows banking etc... Have not found this. Used to get this when using Artist Series plugged into a switch, but I use the S3 plugged directly into the ethernet on my Mac Pro. many threads on this on the duc and other forums
- poor fader resolution (hardware/software?) I have found it very precise, how much more resolution do you need? If you're talking about 100th of a dB adjustment, I just don't see the actual value in that...On the s3 it's .1 dB steps (which is fine) above -10 dB, from there on it's only +- 1dB. In PT however it's about +- 03 - 0.4 dB (much more like the D-command)
- softkey colour coding not working ??? What does this mean? Color LEDs display as expected. many threads on this on the duc. Colour coding you assign to softkeys is not repesented correctly on the device (also on Artist series and it used to work btw) e.g. http://duc.avid.com/showthread.php?t...t=artist+color
- no access to memlocs This is a tad annoying I agree, but I have a keyboard as well, so not a showstopper.Not a priority, but it was there even on the 003.
- I/O routing config not suited for larger sessions Are you talking specifically about using the S3 as an Audio interface not being suited for large sessions? If so I do not use it as an interface and therefore have no experience with this.When you want to config I/O on the s3 in a large session it's nearly impossible to navigate through all the busses/outputs with the s3. It's also not a priority, but in order for this function to be usefull, I/O paths should be grouped.
- no eq/compressor only cycling I am able to select and modify all parameters of all the plugins I use (AVID/Waves/UAD), so I am not sure what you are getting at here... Like on the D-command e.g.: If you select an EQ or compressor through the buttons ond the left or the eq/dynamics submenus on the top encoders, you can only access the first eq/dyn plug-in. You should be able to cycle through all of them though, like on the d-command e.g.; a quick mode with eq on the row rop encoders and dynamics on the bottom row would also be very usefull, although not a priority again

What is sounds like is you were expecting S6 functionality at the price point of an S3. The option for this is to get the Dock as well as it works in tandem with the S3. Do that and you're still cheaper than an S6. Alternatively, it sounds like you may have bought the S3 before reading up on it first to make sure it did the things you wanted it to do. This is similar to buying a Volvo and being mad that it's not as fast as a Ferrari...

Pretty much all of the above functionailty can pretty much obviously be expected from a 5k console. Quite some of it was even present on a 1,5k 003. Not being able to see what automation mode a track is in, or the blatantly wrong behaviour when altering automation mode I descrided in a separate answer are obvious blunders. That's not like comparing a Volvo to a Ferrari, that's like buying a Lada without a steering wheel and with just 2 tires.

[yoerik roevens]

on the huge automation mode bug, read this and watch the videos included: http://duc.avid.com/showthread.php?t=381330

Avid is aware of it for at least over half a year.

[ShiftStudios]

Originally Posted by yoerik roevens

on the huge automation mode bug, read this and watch the videos included: http://duc.avid.com/showthread.php?t=381330

Avid is aware of it for at least over half a year.

Thank you for clarifying all your points. In my circumstances, coming from Mouse/KB > Artist Series > S3, it has been a definite upgrade for me. But when coming from another console with certain features, especially when that console is cheaper, there would be certain expectations, so I understand your position.

I don't think the S3 is Junk, nor is it not fit as a controller, I would just say in your position (and probably in the position of many), it doesn't do everything that it is expected it should. However, that doesn't make it a bad product. Just doesn't make it the product that you wanted/needed/expected.

I tend to do a lot of research on equipment before I buy it as I have been burned in the past like yourself. I now make sure what I'm dumping money into will actually deliver the results I'm expecting. It's unfortunate this happened to you with the S3. Maybe you can onsell it? There are not a lot of second-hand ones available, so maybe you could get a fair chunk of dollars back for it?

[yoerik roevens]

Surely I'm not expecting too much from a 'cheap' console. I`m not expecting anything near th functionality of a D-command e.g., that`s just a different league indeed.
However, blatantly wrong knob behavior, the bug where you can`t properly change auto mode twice in are on the same channel (and of which Avid is `well aware`for over half a year) and the total absence of visual feedback on automation modes are simply unacceptable imo.
Features like colour coding for soft keys are well advertised but have been broken for over a year never to be fixed.

Working 8h/day on d-command and about 6h/day on S3 for over a year now, I often find myself hitting automation buttons on d-command or c24 like crazy, just because that`s how the S3 'works'.

Pretty much all of the list I mentioned earlier would have shown up if this device had been tested for a couple of days in a real environment or at least by people with decent experience in a real environment. It clearly never was.

After all those years, it's still hard to say how much exactly is incompetence and how much is unwillingness, but there's no doubt about it, Avid's audio department has a massive share of both.

[JFreak]

Can we get back to the topic instead of flaming S3?

[Aten]

I totally agree! Avid supplies the most unstable & poor quality hardware and software, poor service and absurd prices.

You will love Presonus Studio One DAW.

[DJ Hellfire]

One thing I always find funny is when dudes complain about missing features that every other DAW has. What's funny about this is that practically every DAW suffers from this. When you look at the feature list of Logic 10.3, you see they are JUST NOW adding features that are very basic for Pro Tools users, and I'm sure Logic users see these as major features.

• Track Alternatives = Playlists/Comping
• Selection-based Processing = Audiosuite
• True Stereo Panning = True Stereo Panning
• Dual Mono inserts = Multi mono inserts
• Horizontal auto zoom = Fit selection to window
• Auto Processing Threads management = New Avid Audio Engine (both intelligently auto-manage usage of all CPU cores)
• More busses = More busses

I'm sure there are more but there are always gonna be things every DAW lacks that a user might feel is basic. As a Pro Tools user I don't think I could mix in a DAW that didn't have these features, but I'm sure other DAW users feel the same way about their features that Pro Tools lacks. With a lot of these software changes (moving to a new DAW), you usually lose one thing to gain another. What really matters is if your gains are more important than your losses. Just sayin!

[Pedro perez]

Logic pro X =$200.00 USD. Just sayin'