Avid Pro Audio Community

Avid Pro Audio Community

How to Join & Post  •  Community Terms of Use  •  Help Us Help You

Knowledge Base Search  •  Community Search  •  Additional Resources


Avid Home Page

Go Back   Avid Pro Audio Community > Pro Tools Hardware > FireWire and USB Audio Interfaces (Win)

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #21  
Old 01-20-2016, 03:43 AM
JFreak's Avatar
JFreak JFreak is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Tampere, Finland
Posts: 15,216
Default Re: "Inserts" vs "Hardware inserts"

Quote:
Originally Posted by JFreak View Post
Think about your signal: where it comes out of the interface, what you do with it, where you send it back to the interface.
Just to repeat myself...
__________________
Janne
What we do in life, echoes in eternity.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 01-20-2016, 05:30 AM
John_Toolbox's Avatar
John_Toolbox John_Toolbox is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 5,240
Default Re: "Inserts" vs "Hardware inserts"

Hi Gogojoe, These guys are all trying to help you, I realize you are frustrated with trying to get this to work, but they have stated everything you need to know to understand this and I think you are focusing too much on the wrong parts of their posts.

I think we need to break this down into smaller chunks of information to help you better understand. Please don't be offended if you already know this, I just want to start from scratch and go through this one step at a time.

So, question 1: do you have an insert Y cable like the one in the image attached to this post?
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	image.jpg
Views:	0
Size:	43.1 KB
ID:	5915  
__________________
- John

If a MIDI event triggers a sample of a tree falling and there's no one there to hear it, does it make a sound?
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 01-20-2016, 06:21 AM
Carl Kolchak Carl Kolchak is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: U.K.
Posts: 2,196
Default Re: "Inserts" vs "Hardware inserts"

Quote:
Originally Posted by John_Toolbox View Post

So, question 1: do you have an insert Y cable like the one in the image attached to this post?

I think the most likely candidate is that the cable is incorrectly wired.

He made it pretty clear in his first post that he understands his interface has an insert point, that is pre-DAW, and that the DAW also allows for plug-in inserts, and hardware inserts using matched I/O.

The only grey areas are the reliability of the Y-lead, the hardware compressor, and interface insert point.

As previously mentioned, those can all be "trouble-shooted" without Pro Tools even being launched (the procedures have already been detailed in an earlier post).

This is a hardware frustration, no point being frustrated with the Pro Tools software - on this occasion
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 01-20-2016, 08:15 AM
Darryl Ramm Darryl Ramm is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: USA
Posts: 11,804
Default Re: "Inserts" vs "Hardware inserts"

So let me guess you actually have a *keyboard* connected to a line-in on the back of the Mbox 3 Pro? (if not you have other problems). And you are trying to get a *preamp* hardware insert working that is in the Mic preamp side of the input channel. That insert won't ever work unless you are going into the Mic input. The most simple troubleshooting would have shown this is not working: as suggested multiple times inserting the TRS plug would not have broken the circuit... you did not even check that right? The documentation I pointed you at before describes the *preamp* insert, but I get that if you are new to all this that explanation may not be clear.. the Mbox 3 Pro schematics in other places/white papers should make that clear, as would just some experience/knowledge of how these type of inserts are normally used.

The reason folks did not spot this straight away is nobody would normally do what you are trying to do. You don't use the insert for a line level source. You just plug the keyboard into the compressor input, plug the compressor output into the back panel line input of the Mbox 3 Pro and you are done. Just like you would with a PA or tape recorder or anything else.

Last edited by Darryl Ramm; 01-20-2016 at 08:39 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 01-20-2016, 09:00 AM
John_Toolbox's Avatar
John_Toolbox John_Toolbox is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 5,240
Default Re: "Inserts" vs "Hardware inserts"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darryl Ramm View Post
The reason folks did not spot this straight away is nobody would normally do what you are trying to do. You don't use the insert for a line level source, there is just no need. You just plug the keyboard into the compressor input, plug the compressor output into the back panel line input of the Mbox 3 Pro and you are done. Just like you would with a PA or tape recorder or anything else.
I think you nailed it Darryl. The Mbox inputs automatically switch between mic/line/inst level based on what you plug into them.
When used as intended, the insert signal flow looks like this:

Mic input -> Mic Pre -> Insert send -> External box -> Insert return -> AD Converter -> DAW input

My guess is that the inserts only work when you are using a mic, meaning the insert is ignored because the mbox detected a line level input, bypassing the mic pre.
__________________
- John

If a MIDI event triggers a sample of a tree falling and there's no one there to hear it, does it make a sound?
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 01-20-2016, 09:10 AM
Darryl Ramm Darryl Ramm is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: USA
Posts: 11,804
Default Re: "Inserts" vs "Hardware inserts"

Quote:
Originally Posted by John_Toolbox View Post
I think you nailed it Darryl. The Mbox inputs automatically switch between mic/line/inst level based on what you plug into them.
When used as intended, the insert signal flow looks like this:

Mic input -> Mic Pre -> Insert send -> External box -> Insert return -> AD Converter -> DAW input

My guess is that the inserts only work when you are using a mic, meaning the insert is ignored because the mbox detected a line level input, bypassing the mic pre.
Actually on the Mbox 3 Pro you have to manually switch (button on the front panel) to the rear panel line inputs.

This is a good case for why product documentation should always include a schematic. The schematics in the Mbox family white paper (http://www.avid.com/static/resources...logy_guide.pdf) should have been in the User Guide. In addition it would would have been great to also include example studio setup type schematics as used in other Avid documentation.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 01-20-2016, 09:21 AM
John_Toolbox's Avatar
John_Toolbox John_Toolbox is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 5,240
Default Re: "Inserts" vs "Hardware inserts"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darryl Ramm View Post
Actually on the Mbox 3 Pro you have to manually switch (button on the front panel) to the rear panel line inputs.

This is a good case for why product documentation should always include a schematic. The schematics in the Mbox family white paper (http://www.avid.com/static/resources...logy_guide.pdf) should have been in the User Guide. In addition it would would have been great to also include example studio setup type schematics as used in other Avid documentation.
Thanks for that link Darryl. I think the schematics in that PDF should be painted on the top of the unit! This is definitely a case where a picture is worth 1000 words.
__________________
- John

If a MIDI event triggers a sample of a tree falling and there's no one there to hear it, does it make a sound?
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 01-20-2016, 10:56 AM
LesPaul2550 LesPaul2550 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Southwest Florida
Posts: 47
Default Re: "Inserts" vs "Hardware inserts"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darryl Ramm View Post
Actually on the Mbox 3 Pro you have to manually switch (button on the front panel) to the rear panel line inputs.

This is a good case for why product documentation should always include a schematic. The schematics in the Mbox family white paper (http://www.avid.com/static/resources...logy_guide.pdf) should have been in the User Guide. In addition it would would have been great to also include example studio setup type schematics as used in other Avid documentation.
GREAT Link!!! Also has the signal flow diagram for a regular MBox (3) like mine.

That answers the question from the original post...
The correct way to use the inserts on your interface are only when using the mic in, not line in.
__________________
Quote from the movie Heavy Metal:
"And if I refuse?"
"Then you die, she dies, everybody dies"
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 01-20-2016, 11:48 AM
jeffro's Avatar
jeffro jeffro is offline
Avid
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 7,679
Default Re: "Inserts" vs "Hardware inserts"

Thanks for sharing that doc (it's linked from the Mbox Pro Docs KB). The section about Connecting Inserts in the Mbox Pro User Guide agrees with this:
Mbox Pro provides a total of four insert jacks (Inserts 1–4) for inserting external processing devices such as an EQ or a compressor between the input channel’s onboard mic preamp and the onboard analog to digital convertor.
So that's why the compressor (Insert 3) didn't affect your keyboard (Line Input 3).

If you want to use your compressor on your keyboard you can do one of the following...
  • Keyboard > Compressor > Mbox Pro Line Input = this will print the effect
  • Keyboard > Mbox Pro Line Input with a Hardware Insert on your Audio Track = this will affect playback
  • Keyboard > Mbox Pro Line Input to an Aux Track (with a Hardware Insert) routed to an Audio Track (like Albee recommended) = this will print the effect
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 01-20-2016, 11:56 AM
LesPaul2550 LesPaul2550 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Southwest Florida
Posts: 47
Default Re: "Inserts" vs "Hardware inserts"

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffro View Post
  • Keyboard > Mbox Pro Line Input to an Aux Track (with a Hardware Insert) routed to an Audio Track (like Albee recommended) = this will print the effect
Keep in mind this last method can add additional latency since you're causing and additional D to A then A to D conversion but it is another nice way to do it.
__________________
Quote from the movie Heavy Metal:
"And if I refuse?"
"Then you die, she dies, everybody dies"
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
hardware inserts on the 3rd gen mbox production1982 Getting Started 4 03-01-2015 10:00 AM
Hardware inserts on MBox IncomParablE 003, Mbox 2, Digi 002, original Mbox, Digi 001 (Win) 6 03-07-2013 01:32 PM
Trouble using hardware inserts on Mbox Pro jamiet Pro Tools 9 1 10-19-2011 08:00 AM
Hardware inserts on Mbox : why? how? wonderfall 003, Mbox 2, Digi 002, original Mbox, Digi 001 (Win) 4 08-04-2003 01:49 AM
hardware inserts on mbox Don M 003, Mbox 2, Digi 002, original Mbox, Digi 001 (Mac) 2 05-12-2003 10:56 AM


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 09:01 AM.


Powered by: vBulletin, Copyright ©2000 - 2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Limited. Forum Hosted By: URLJet.com