Mbox Pro "Inserts" vs "Hardware inserts"

[Darryl Ramm]

You are doing it wrong.

The insert connectors on the Mbox 3 are purely hardware inserts for the Mic preamps. Plug in the correct insert/"Y" cable and correctly connect the other ends to your outboard compressor and it will just work. This has *nothing* at all to do with Pro Tools or it's software inserts.

The documentation you are after is all in the MBox Pro User Guide, a few paragraphs under "Connecting Inserts". Nothing more to it. Assuming you know how to correctly use the outboard hardware. if it is not working you most likely have the wrong Y cable or are not fully inserting the plug properly (to break the insert bypass in the TRS socket) on the Mbox, or are not using the hardware compressor properly. Stick any old obvious audio source into the return TS plug on the inset cable (like output from a CD or MP3 player), do you hear that source in Pro Tools now?

If you want to use inserts from Pro Tools (like to compress pre-recorded audio) then read the Pro Tools Reference Guide on how that works. You must use matched output and inputs (like go Out 3 going to In 3). You do *NOT* use the hardware Inset connections for Pro Tools inserts.. they connections are hardware preamp Inserts not Inputs or Outputs that Pro Tools can talk to in any way.

[GoGoJoe]

Hi, i really hope someone can help me here because i'm at the end of my rope in terms of research.

It appears there's a few ways to use your outbound HW in pro tools but one way is still gray for me and that's how to use your outbound hardware gear with the "Inserts" on your external sound card (Not the inputs/ outputs or "Hardware inserts" addressed in pro tools) but the physical "inserts" labeled on the back of your external sound card.

It's confusing to me, because most would assume that in Pro TOOLS "inserts" are the same thing as "hardware inserts" but apparently they are not. I don't even see a way to address "inserts" in pro tools.. only "hardware inserts"

From my research most people are using "hardware inserts" inside of pro tools which uses a combination of your output/ input channels to create the "Hardware insert" which isn't to be confused with the actual "Inserts" on the back of your external sound card. The terminology really kept me in a loop as each google search would return me back to how to use "Hardware inserts" in pro tools vs. "Inserts" on external sound cards. It's gray to me how to use the "inserts".


Most common setup for HW appears to be to be: From your external sound card output 3 (for example) > to the input of your compressor > out of the comp to input 3 of your external sound card. (making sure IO is setup correctly) Then mount insert 3 of your track to utilize the HW. This seems useful on your "already recorded audio tracks" when your mixing down/ finalizing your mix. For what i have going on, i prefer to use "inserts" on live audio.

My end goal: Say you have a blank pro tools session, you create 1 mono or stereo Audio Track, and say u use inputs 3(for mono) or 3 + 4 (for stereo keyboard synth like the Triton for example) on that track. Innately if you hit record and play your Triton it will record the raw audio on the track. However I'd like to record while compressing the audio so the audio is altered coming in. I imagine an "insert" alters the corresponding input (if using input 3, the insert 3 needs to be used to alter it's signal?) I envision there's a way where i can play my synth, route the signal LIVE through the HW compressor (listening to it live making changes to the threshold, attack, release ect... while i'm playing my melody or drum pattern ect..). I'd like to be able to play and toggle the HW compressor to get the sound exactly right LIVE and then when I'm happy with the HW compression simply hit record, the HW compressor will already be set to the desired settings (requiring less manipulation in the end)

What's the proper way to setup and use "inserts" in pro tools?


What I've tried:
I've tried purchasing a Y insert cable, coming out mono (left and right) of my compressor to a Stereo TSR end that goes into "insert 3" on my mbox pro 3. I tried input 3 (mono) input 3/4 stereo along with my HW comp inserted into insert 3.... I assume nothing needs to be done in pro tools to make this work as this is happening all before the singal gets to pro tools. I expect that when I play the keyboard, that the signal would of be routed through my compressor, (i would see gain level on my Compressor) and that the signal was being processed but no dice. The HW comp shows no life as if no singal isn't being routed. I thought that with insert cables both send and receive the signal on the same lines... Perhaps i have a bad understanding of how "inserts" are suppose to work in pro tools. Please let me know what i'm doing wrong and if there's anything additional i need to do to make it work.

Any assistance in getting my to my end goal is greatly appreciated.

[Darryl Ramm]

You are trying to use a hardware inserts that have *nothing* to do with Pro Tools.

It has nothing to do with retuning a signal anywhere else except the hardware insert.

I pointed you before to the documentation for your interface which does basically describe using the hardware insert. And suggested tests to do. Did you do those tests?

A insert Y cable when used with an TRS insert socket splits out to two cables with TS plugs, one is an output from your preamp, the other is a return to behind the preamp in the signal flow. As described in the Mbox 3 Pro documentation I already pointed you at... Plug the TRS plug on the Y cable into the insert socket. Connect the insert out Y lead to the compressor input, and compressor out to insert return. If it does not work as expected confirm basic basic stuff... that 1. the signal chain is broken when theTRS plug is inserted (and the other Y leads are not connected to anything), and 2. confirm you are getting a signal from your preamp on the output Y cable and 3. confirm if you feed a signal to the return Y cable that Pro Tools sees that. And 4. the compressor works/is set up properly.

Actually you don't need Pro Tools connected at all, you can do all this in stand alone mode on the Mbox Pro.

This is basic signal wiring stuff and you have everything in front of you to debug what is going on, maybe a multimeter would help to confirm correct cable wiring. Ideally you would have an image in your mind of the schematic of the Mbox 3 Pro and exactly what/where the hardware insert is doing. That schematic is in Avid documentation and/or white papers on the MBox family.

Yes it can be a bit confusing because "hardware insert" can be used carelessly to mean two different things, but in reality it's usually perfectly clear what is meant once you understand the basics. The actual hardware inserts on the Mbox 3 Pro are just standard audio engineering/recording stuff, totally classic analog wiring. I expect any decent book on audio engineering/recording will explain hardware insets and probably worth finding one and having a read. Understanding what that would look like on a classic analog console or patch panel might help. If you are lost on this stuff, you probably also not be on top of stuff like differential wiring, ground loops, gain staging, impedance, different line level signal standards, analog and digital signal levels, etc. Stuff that will make your life much easier if you understand the basics, and very worth picking up a book on.

[Hannibal Lecter]

Joe,

I think you're confusing Pro Tools DAW plugin "insert" vs. physical "insert" where as you're physically routing out to a hardware and return back into digital conversion.

[GoGoJoe]

Originally Posted by Hannibal Lecter

Joe,

I think you're confusing Pro Tools DAW plugin "insert" vs. physical "insert" where as you're physically routing out to a hardware and return back into digital conversion.

Hi, thanks, your right. I understand how to use the compressor as a hardware insert in pro tools.

My difficulty is using the hardware as an insert on my interface. I explained how I've tried to use before with an insert cable but when I plug the mono outs from my hw comp to the trs end going to the mbox insert. In making sure to use the same insert as the input device so it's effecting the right device I don't get any singal. I posted on here to get a little help or nudge in the right direction

Please all forgive me, im just like you guys looking for help.

[soybalm]

I'm not sure how the M-Box works but on a regular insert on an analog board, you would plug the TRS end of a Y jack into the channel jack labeled insert on a mixing board. One of the Y cable ends (send) go to the input of the compressor. The other cable end (return) would go to the output of the compressor enabling you to get what you need from one channel's insert. Maybe there's a software switch in the MBox control panel to turn on the insert. Hopefully, you are using a jack labeled "insert" on the m box.

[JFreak]

Originally Posted by GoGoJoe

when I plug the mono outs from my hw comp to the trs end going to the mbox insert. In making sure to use the same insert as the input device so it's effecting the right device I don't get any singal.

What it is that you are trying to do here? Connect mono output from hardware compressor to mBox insert point? What do you do for hardware compressor input? And how are you taking the PT signal out of the mBox?

External hardware insert is really pretty simple as soon as you get it. First PT sends a signal out, then you do "something" which as far as PT is concerned can be anything in the world, and then PT expects to get a signal back.

If there is a TRS insert point, then PT sends and receives using the same plug; tip being send and ring being return. Therefore, you need an Y-cable for it. Doesn't matter if you have two TS plugs or two XLR plugs, one of them is send and another is return. Do not break the signal.

If there aren't, which is how HD interfaces work, you need to set a hardware insert on PT IO setup page. You need to match i/o channels for the insert, say output8/input8 is what you connect to your compressor, then in the PT mixer just drop hardware insert 8 to a plugin slot and there you go.

But the principle is the same, only that HD interfaces use balanced i/o for inserting hardware. TRS insert points are supposed to make things easier, but you still need to understand what you're doing. Think about your signal: where it comes out of the interface, what you do with it, where you send it back to the interface.

If you have more questions, it would be very helpful if you first read the "Help Us Help You" page that is linked on the forum header. Post pics if you must, but be very precise about what kind of problem you have. Currently, most of us have no clue why you are failing in such a trivial thing as external hardware insert.

[Top Jimmy]

Something else needs to be understood here. Gogojoe is confusing the inserts on the mbox with inserts in Pro Tools and possibly even the hardware inserts in Pro Tools. These are three distinctively different inserts that aren't interrelated.

[GoGoJoe]

Originally Posted by Top Jimmy

Something else needs to be understood here. Gogojoe is confusing the inserts on the mbox with inserts in Pro Tools and possibly even the hardware inserts in Pro Tools. These are three distinctively different inserts that aren't interrelated.

I thought I made it very clear I'm my original post that I understand there's a difference between hardware inserts and inserts on my mbox pro 3. I explained in my original post exactly that I'm able to use the hardware inserts and even explain how to set it up.

Perhaps I was a little wordy in my explanation and you didn't read it all but I I understand the terms and how they work. I'm Having an issue getting the insert on my mbox to work. (Works fine as a hardware insert) That's the reason for this post

Please go back and read the original post

[Top Jimmy]

The insert jack on the Mbox allows you to tap signal between the preamp and the AD converter on the Mbox itself. This jack does not "go through" Pro Tools. If you have a compressor patched into this jack and the mic plugged into the preamp is not being compressed, then you patched it wrong. An insert cable is not a "Y" cable. Make sure you are using a real insert cable, and also make sure that you have the correct plugs patched to the input and output of the compressor.