musical

[manis]

Hi all again, I was talking to the producer, director and set designer today for a movie shooting in September.., a musical. They were banging there heads together about how it should be done. I could think of so many ways, but nothing simple and all prone to lyp sync problems. They were thinking production concerns and visuals, fair enough. I have been pushing the director a little to let me know where the music and in what form will it manifest, so to speak. I have a lot of musical background and very little time (for a musical). BUT luckily one of my very good friends is a musical genius (because he has done nothing but play guitar and learn guitar for around 40 years. He has consented to helping in anyway possible.., dont underestimate this guy. He is kean to put music to movie. Anyway, obvious the best way is a studio, but these guys want to do it on set for lyp sync (and possibly financial) reasons.

Fortunately the director is not silly and has written all the words and melody, enough for my friend to work through it in a flash.

soooo. these guys want to get the music done and mime to it on set, which is not too bad an idea I think. Plan is, I get the music (rough cut), fine tune it to the final product before post production and the actors mime and I put it to film in post. I was going to do location but all agreed I was too busy.

any thoughts would be appreciated.., I think this project could be fun.

M:)

[manis]

I was tired and got it wrong, there were so many versions of what they should do. What they want to do is sing live to a click track and for me to overlay with mult-track in post.

btw, I got FCP studio 2 and there is a nice ADR there and a heap of other things, including 'handles,' and intergration with ProTools via extenstions (I think, just looked at it last night and heard 'protools' mentioned. (TUT.., DVD), anyway, it certainly brings the art of film making into the house, all one needs is a good script, good imagination, good grounding in theory and a lot of practice (nothing is THAT easy)

M:)

[TheHenchman]

Holy crap. These guys are doing it completely a s s backwards.
What they need to do first, is write and record ALL the music and Vocals.
Then, they need to make set-playback versions, to which the Actors will perform and lipsynch to. ( which involves converting the audio to playback at the correct speed/framerate. If they don't do this, it will NEVER EVER synch up again.)

If they think having the actors do all the singing to a click, and then do the music afterwards will save them money, well, tell them they might as well make a big bonfire, and throw all the money in it right now. Because it's going to be a huge disaster. I guarantee it.

The way they want to do it, is like building a house by glueing a bunch of drywall together. Then trying to pour a foundation, and add all the plumbing and studs to that.

Wouldn't work so well, would it.

Oh, and if they haven't started recording the music yet (have they even written it?), I can also guarantee you, they won't be shooting in September.

[Brent Hahn]

Everything Mark said, except for the bonfire part. Send the money to me instead.

I'm assuming the film's producers, as part of their due diligence, closely studied every movie musical they could lay their hands on. And they no doubt discovered that every single one of them was lipsynched. Either that, or they can't tell the difference.

Anyway, besides the sync issues Mark addresses, there's another great reason to lipsync: there's no need for Quiet On The Set. The Director can clap his hands and scream, the First AD can re-scream what the Director just screamed, the lights can buzz, Craft Services can clatter, and the DP won't ever have a mic in his shot.

[manis]

I couldn't agree more.., I said words to that effects and if you dont mind I will forward on your e-mail. I like this guy and I think he is brave to try a musical. I think he wonders why I am on his back all the time. One of the dumb teachers at uni who quote 'doesn't know a thing about musicals' has been (I assume trying) to draft the script with the director.., I see the director leaving the office rather dejected.., I tell him to shoot from the heart (because I dont trust the teacher know what in the hell he is talking about and often wonder how he got the job.., no sarcasm meant here) anyway, I look forward to this project and could assign my friend as musical director, ect.., as it is it is because of me the musical was pushed back three weeks TO September, not because they listened to my advice, but because the whole uni is worried about my work load.., and so.., the musical was pushed back.

Yes, the bot has written the music.., and fortunately my friend could knock out any melody lines into a song very quickly.., my only concern is I can not give my friend a time because the director doesnt understand how important this is, he thinks he understands but he doesn't, he is concerning himself with visuals over the top of the music.., there will be no visual without the music as far as I can see?? anyway, now I can start to iron things out with the help of these e-mails, but what I am concerned about (as I was saying) is if I dont have a tight schedule my friend might go on a holiday somewhere (which he does often) and I'll be left with it all, and if thats the case, if the musical is done at all it will be at the cost of my sanity.

cheers all, any more thoughts very welcome. I am much better armed now to make some qualified decisions.

[philper]

At least some of the vocals in "Walk The Line" were recorded live, witha mix-minus playback, I believe.

Philip Perkins

[manis]

LOL.., well that changes everything.., I feel like im walking the line on this one actually oh yea, I just got an answer from the director about why did he go to the the supervisor before me.., he said it was because the supervisor asked him how was it to be done (fair enough question) which.., get this.., led them to scratching their heads.., so it seems, he has gone ahead with this plan for a musical without giving it any thought at all except for.., wouldn't that be fun.., if pink floyd can do it so can I'

well, 10 out of ten for either courage or naivety?

[Carl Kolchak]

Whilst I'm in complete agreement that it is utter lunacy to put the cart before the horse in this manner, it is not impossible.

One of the problems with having the composer write around live takes is that they can end up dictating the picture edit (not what anyone wants).

If you're talking about using the sound from a single perfect take (i.e. perfect for sound and picture) that was shot with multiple cameras, that changes things somewhat. But thats unlikely to happen in a choreographed musical feature over a "live" concert situation.

Again, I would be an advocate for having the finished music on set for playback. But If that is just not possible by the time the shoot happens, it would be workable so long as the composer, the director and the editor have agreed on a precise tempo, duration, arrangement and vocal.

In other words, on the day of the shoot you would need to have a version of the music available for playback that is :

the correct tempo

the correct duration

the correct arrangement

and features the final version of the vocal , that would have had to have been recorded well in advance. All other elements of the track need only be demo quality.

You would then have to observe all the previously mentioned concerns regarding sync on set.

In the mean time the composer can carry on finessing the track as needs be, so long as he does not change any of the four key elements in any way at all (and changing the accent on drums etc would be a really terrible idea if people are doing a lot of dancing).

I only really mention this as an emergency back-up plan, and seeing as this is new territory for you, I wouldn't recommend it.

I think you would make better use of your time by getting the ball rolling with the finished tracks now, rather than experimenting with the above mentioned method and hoping the composer trundles along at his own rate.

[TheHenchman]

At least some of the vocals in "Walk The Line" were recorded live, witha mix-minus playback, I believe.

Philip Perkins

But, you still need a mix-minus version first. And I agree with Cral. It doesn't have to eb the complete ly finished version.
As long as the tempo's remain the same. You're good to go.

[Don Barto]

It doesn't have to be the completely finished version.

Exactly. And once there are good playback recordings and they are used to cue good lip-synch takes before the camera, there is also the option of actually re-recording the final singing takes to picture in ADR-like fashion — yet another layer of artistic and technical control. Just ahead of recording the final vocal takes, there is the opportunity to make adjustments to the accompanyment (even the key of the song, as the camera doesn't care what pitches had been sung) so long as everyone involved is a) musically savy enough to avoid creating new problems, and b) willing to spend the time and money to carry out those adjustments. It is also a good idea to ADR dialog that comes immediately befrore and after singing...whatever might be needed to create the perfect sonic illusion that the people on screen are really-really singing and that nothing was rolled-in or faked in any manner.