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  #61  
Old 11-17-2017, 12:42 AM
TNM TNM is offline
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Default Re: Workaround for lack of side chain delay compensation

Quote:
Originally Posted by midnightrambler View Post
I haven't found one. It's a nightmare if you're running plugins with a lot of latency. You have to keep on top of the trigger track and move it by the number of samples the latency readout is giving, which of course can change as soon as you add another plugin with a higher latency.

If you're after that pumping thing though the
Waves Pumper works a treat. Saves a lot of hassle worrying about the latency of the trigger track. http://www.waves.com/plugins/oneknob-pumper
Ok so after spending the day on this.. i feel these are the quickest workarounds for those who want to keep everything in real time rather than bounce/commit:

adding the time adjuster plugin for some reason has 4 samples minimum so you have to always go that extra step to minus that 4 from the total.. anyway..so i'm not using this..

for me.. the answer is to create a silent trigger track, i.e clone my kick or loop or whatever and set it to no output.
If i need to put a latent plugin on the receiving track, before the sidechain receiving plugin, (after is of no consequence, and further bussing etc you can do all you like), i'll just copy that exact plugin straight to the ghost trigger track, but not have it do anything.. for example if a compressor or gate, set threshold to max and min and so on.. if an EQ, just leave flat, and so on.. the latency is always assured to be exactly what the receiving track is and match up in this case.Remove a plugin on the receiving track? change one? simple, copy it over to trigger track. SO easy. I tested this with rhythms and it's very precise.. and no need to nudge clips or any of that. I am surprised no one else mentioned this method so far.

There is only one scenario where further work would be needed..
1) You decide to put some latent plugins on the trigger track (ie the track sending the audio to the S/C plugin).. then you'd have to nudge the audio backwards on that track, and you might need to subtract the total of some plugins from others to get the correct figure.
Solution?
Don't use latent plugins on ghost trigger track.. I mean, really, what need would there be?

and on the track being modulated by the S/C, after the S/C plugin itself, you can put any darn thing you like.. only before causes issues.


my method makes sense especially for grid based music, cause if you move stuff around on the ghost/trigger track, you can leave everything on the grid. mirroring plugins is not hard. In fact, around 95% of aax plugins besides a few like ik multimedia, have the same latency when bypassed.. you can literally just copy plugins over and bypass. No need to create any extra faders etc..
and once again, your trigger audio is still all on grid as no nudging was needed.
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  #62  
Old 11-17-2017, 03:39 AM
midnightrambler midnightrambler is offline
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Default Re: Workaround for lack of side chain delay compensation

Quote:
Originally Posted by TNM View Post
Ok so after spending the day on this.. i feel these are the quickest workarounds for those who want to keep everything in real time rather than bounce/commit:

adding the time adjuster plugin for some reason has 4 samples minimum so you have to always go that extra step to minus that 4 from the total.. anyway..so i'm not using this..

for me.. the answer is to create a silent trigger track, i.e clone my kick or loop or whatever and set it to no output.
If i need to put a latent plugin on the receiving track, before the sidechain receiving plugin, (after is of no consequence, and further bussing etc you can do all you like), i'll just copy that exact plugin straight to the ghost trigger track, but not have it do anything.. for example if a compressor or gate, set threshold to max and min and so on.. if an EQ, just leave flat, and so on.. the latency is always assured to be exactly what the receiving track is and match up in this case.Remove a plugin on the receiving track? change one? simple, copy it over to trigger track. SO easy. I tested this with rhythms and it's very precise.. and no need to nudge clips or any of that. I am surprised no one else mentioned this method so far.

There is only one scenario where further work would be needed..
1) You decide to put some latent plugins on the trigger track (ie the track sending the audio to the S/C plugin).. then you'd have to nudge the audio backwards on that track, and you might need to subtract the total of some plugins from others to get the correct figure.
Solution?
Don't use latent plugins on ghost trigger track.. I mean, really, what need would there be?

and on the track being modulated by the S/C, after the S/C plugin itself, you can put any darn thing you like.. only before causes issues.


my method makes sense especially for grid based music, cause if you move stuff around on the ghost/trigger track, you can leave everything on the grid. mirroring plugins is not hard. In fact, around 95% of aax plugins besides a few like ik multimedia, have the same latency when bypassed.. you can literally just copy plugins over and bypass. No need to create any extra faders etc..
and once again, your trigger audio is still all on grid as no nudging was needed.
Can you clarify - does this work if you use the trigger for pumping more than one track (e.g. bass, synths, pads) which each may have different plug-in combinations on?

Also I've always tended to put the "pumper" as the last thing on the plug-in chain (so you don't end up e.g. compressing the pumped signal so much you end up losing the pump effect!) but I appreciate that might not actually be necessary in a lot of cases.

Really though I'm just looking forward to the time when this whole pumping thing is considered old hat. I mean that Eric Prydz track must be getting on for 14 years old now....
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  #63  
Old 11-17-2017, 05:48 AM
TNM TNM is offline
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Default Re: Workaround for lack of side chain delay compensation

ahh i didn't check using one ghost track to sidechain a few different other tracks. Will do!

I actually don't do any of my "movement" or "pumping" effects via sidechain if i can help it, as i have plugins like vengeance multi band sidechain and even the little waves pumper that make things like that very easy.

I use them for clearing space in the mix....

ducking the bass with the kick etc.. that sort of thing.. for actual mixing purposes...

*sometimes* if i make up some really great rhythm, i might then use it to gate or compress a pad, rather than use a plugin.

I am still angry about this, i have been disappointed before but never actually angry with avid.....i feel it's downright cruel what they have done. Even the most basic, utility mixing side chain of using the kick to duck the bass, is out of time unless you have only absolute zero latency plugins to do so! Basically your attack and release settings are pointless lol cause they will be having the latency added or subtracted on.

I couldn't find one other daw on the mac that does not compensate sidechain latency./ .Congrats avid, you really are the only one!

I have seen people leaving pro tools to go to cubase in droves.. i know at least 20 people myself just in the last few months.. just personal contacts.. can you imagine if everyone knew 20 people?

And where i was the one that went TO pro tools, they all gave me grief for it lol.

Don't avid get it? They need to compete ffs! I want my money's worth for my sub cost!

And with HDX.. i can't find any info that clears up the sidechain info.. ok.. i know you have to use an aax dsp plugin for the sidechain to be latency compensated, but what happens if you happen to stick a uad plugin before the dsp plugin, or on the ghost track to say, sculpt it (say, a uad transient designer). Does that throw it out of sync too?

Avid have a very good PDC engine. This is arbitrary for them to "enable" for native users, they are just being difficult. Whatever method they use to calculate aax dsp S/C latency, just adapt it for native plugins. They are using the same mixer delay counter!

Anyway, my whole day has been wasted on this, i need to crash but i'll answer for you in the morrow, i won't forget.

Cheers
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  #64  
Old 11-17-2017, 05:52 AM
midnightrambler midnightrambler is offline
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Default Re: Workaround for lack of side chain delay compensation

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Originally Posted by TNM View Post
I use them for clearing space in the mix....

ducking the bass with the kick etc.. that sort of thing.. for actual mixing purposes...
Ah touché my man!

Also agree with you on the other points, and it really does seem crazy not to have delay compensation for side chaining.
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  #65  
Old 02-21-2018, 01:37 AM
~ufo~ ~ufo~ is offline
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Default Re: Workaround for lack of side chain delay compensation

Please vote this one up too, fellers.

If you want to get the best out of sidechaining in Fabfilter Pro-L 2, we're gonna need multichannel side chaining, in addition to it being delay compensated!


http://protools.ideascale.com/a/dtd/...a-tab-comments
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  #66  
Old 02-21-2018, 06:59 AM
weezul weezul is offline
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Default Re: Workaround for lack of side chain delay compensation

Quote:
Originally Posted by midnightrambler View Post
If you're after that pumping thing though the
Waves Pumper works a treat. Saves a lot of hassle worrying about the latency of the trigger track. http://www.waves.com/plugins/oneknob-pumper
In my experience an offline bounce of Waves Pumper renders out of time... I've only ever been able to make it work with an online bounce. Even offline-bouncing the pumper track... the resulted track is out of time as well (the pump is off the grid but the audio is in place)
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  #67  
Old 02-21-2018, 06:55 PM
TNM TNM is offline
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Default Re: Workaround for lack of side chain delay compensation

Quote:
Originally Posted by weezul View Post
In my experience an offline bounce of Waves Pumper renders out of time... I've only ever been able to make it work with an online bounce. Even offline-bouncing the pumper track... the resulted track is out of time as well (the pump is off the grid but the audio is in place)
just tested it..

created a pad on xpand, put pumper on it at 100% wet.

Did a real time bounce.

Then did an offline commit..

identical.

Sorry, can't reproduce here.
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  #68  
Old 03-22-2020, 03:56 AM
XJENSEN XJENSEN is offline
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Default Re: Workaround for lack of side chain delay compensation

I just found this thread. Very interesting!

And also a confirmation of what I'm seeing/hearing in the latest version of PT (2019.12): ADC, especially for side chaining, is still not working. I also see the various timing issues when using the Commit feature.

What worries me is that you need a degree in higher math to perform these constant calculations / plugin management to keep all audio in time..

Is Avid even aware of these obvious flaws in Pro Tools?

Also, I'm currently on HD Native. Would switching to an HDX card solve any or all of these problems? (not that I would want to invest in an HDX card at this time, but that's a different discussion)
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  #69  
Old 01-10-2021, 03:31 AM
Glo123 Glo123 is offline
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Default Re: Workaround for lack of side chain delay compensation

Quote:
Originally Posted by TNM View Post
ahh i didn't check using one ghost track to sidechain a few different other tracks. Will do!

I actually don't do any of my "movement" or "pumping" effects via sidechain if i can help it, as i have plugins like vengeance multi band sidechain and even the little waves pumper that make things like that very easy.

I use them for clearing space in the mix....

ducking the bass with the kick etc.. that sort of thing.. for actual mixing purposes...

*sometimes* if i make up some really great rhythm, i might then use it to gate or compress a pad, rather than use a plugin.

I am still angry about this, i have been disappointed before but never actually angry with avid.....i feel it's downright cruel what they have done. Even the most basic, utility mixing side chain of using the kick to duck the bass, is out of time unless you have only absolute zero latency plugins to do so! Basically your attack and release settings are pointless lol cause they will be having the latency added or subtracted on.

I couldn't find one other daw on the mac that does not compensate sidechain latency./ .Congrats avid, you really are the only one!

I have seen people leaving pro tools to go to cubase in droves.. i know at least 20 people myself just in the last few months.. just personal contacts.. can you imagine if everyone knew 20 people?

And where i was the one that went TO pro tools, they all gave me grief for it lol.

Don't avid get it? They need to compete ffs! I want my money's worth for my sub cost!

And with HDX.. i can't find any info that clears up the sidechain info.. ok.. i know you have to use an aax dsp plugin for the sidechain to be latency compensated, but what happens if you happen to stick a uad plugin before the dsp plugin, or on the ghost track to say, sculpt it (say, a uad transient designer). Does that throw it out of sync too?

Avid have a very good PDC engine. This is arbitrary for them to "enable" for native users, they are just being difficult. Whatever method they use to calculate aax dsp S/C latency, just adapt it for native plugins. They are using the same mixer delay counter!

Anyway, my whole day has been wasted on this, i need to crash but i'll answer for you in the morrow, i won't forget.

Cheers
Hi there! Sorry to dig up an old thread, but I’ve been struggling with this. We’re you able to find out if the technique you write about works when you have one source as as the trigger for multiple side chains? For example, if you had a kick (with no inserts in it) be used as a side chain out to a reverb and out to a bass track.

I’m not sure if I am right about this, but if you have one track being used as the side chain trigger to multiple other tracks, then I think that track has to have no inserts on it. And the tracks the side chain compressors are on (let’s assume it’s all compressors) can’t have any plugins before them on the insert chain. Is this correct? If so, where this gets hard is for a reverb aux track that has multiple things feeding into it but also had a compressor at the end of the chain to duck the reverb with, say, a separate kick trigger. Do you just print the combined reverb audio and the stick a compressor on the printer track and throw a side chained compressor? I’m not sure if you can even use the commit feature to print out a reverb aux if multiple things are feeding into it.
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