Drum Overheads

[albee1952]

Originally Posted by EGS

Yes it does. For that reason I do not use a 57 on the snare, but rather an SM81 with the 10 pad engaged. The hat bleed into the snare mic is now interesting and useful. Try it!!!

Interesting you say this as I recently started using an SM81 clipped to my 57(X-Clip)http://www.thexclip.com/#!home/mainPage
Although, usually I can get a good angle to keep hat bleed out of the 57 enough. I usually have a bigger issue with snare bleed into the hat mic. My solution there is a Sterling UMS mic shield(about 6" x 6" shield on a gooseneck). It really helps

[EGS]

Originally Posted by albee1952

Interesting you say this as I recently started using an SM81 clipped to my 57(X-Clip)http://www.thexclip.com/#!home/mainPage
Although, usually I can get a good angle to keep hat bleed out of the 57 enough. I usually have a bigger issue with snare bleed into the hat mic. My solution there is a Sterling UMS mic shield(about 6" x 6" shield on a gooseneck). It really helps

I never tried double top-micing a snare, but cool idea!!!

Re:hat/snare bleed, here's yet another opinion on drum micing. There are hundreds...

If (BIG if) you are going for a great acoustic drum sound:
Less = more. This is an opinion, so don't fret!!! Tight mic each drum to a separate track, but this is just part of the sound. Use a single top snare mic. I use an SM81 with the 10 pad. Bottom snare mics sound like crap - again, just an opinion. Let the hat bleed into the snare mic; don't worry since the off-axis frequency response of the SM81 (or similar) is useful in this case. Do not use a 57 on snare; see above re off axis coloration. Use a single overhead. (I use a U87 but you could use another mic.) Position this single OH as low as the drummer will allow and point it at the right knee, left for leftie drummers. No hat mic since OH as well as the SM81 snare mic gets plenty of it. Besides, a hat sounds better from a distance than close perspective. The single OH mic is good for 90% of the drum sound but only if: a) drums tuned b) cymbals balanced c) good drummer. Less mics = tighter phase. Check in mono for full-frequency power. For the mix first bring up the single OH mic, pan a bit to one side. This is the main sound of the entire drum kit. Add the snare mic, pan a bit to the other side. Add kik. Add tom tracks as needed. EQ/verb/compress/limit to taste. Except during tom hits (which I edit between hits anyway) it's 3-mics - kik/snr/OH. Try it !!!

[mesaone]

Bump just to reiterate that a single omni overhead can sound really good. And sometimes it is good to cut back on the complexity. A mic on everything can put you into surgeon mode instead of audio engineer mode. Adjusting 12+ mics and trying to keep an objective ear is almost impossible. For me, at least.

[Marsdy]

Originally Posted by EGS

Yes it does. For that reason I do not use a 57 on the snare, but rather an SM81 with the 10 pad engaged. The hat bleed into the snare mic is now interesting and useful. Try it!!!

SM81's.... classic mic. And yes, you're going to get bleed between mics so make it sound good although I've been using some of the acoustic isolators like the small SE Reflection Filter.

Another snare alternative is the Audix i5. Bit more "scooped" with a smiley response than a 57 but it's a great mic and bargain to boot. Works really well on guitars cabs as well

Nothing wrong with LDC mics as overheads. Also, if you already have a good LDC, consider spending ALL your overhead budget on a quality small diaphragm mic like a Schoeps or DPA 4006/4011 and use a M/S overhead pair. Your room is probably a bit small for this though but you'll end up with a great mic for acoustic guitar etc. and you can always add a second when budget allows. (You don't HAVE to have a matched pair.)

Ribbon mics are great if retro is you're thing but you NEED the right mic pre that caters for them.

[Marsdy]

Originally Posted by mesaone

Bump just to reiterate that a single omni overhead can sound really good. And sometimes it is good to cut back on the complexity. A mic on everything can put you into surgeon mode instead of audio engineer mode. Adjusting 12+ mics and trying to keep an objective ear is almost impossible. For me, at least.

Didn't do Glynn Johns any harm ;-)

[easyrider]

Originally Posted by Drew Mazurek

With PZMs being omni, they're probably more like room mics up there, and being that close together means your image is fairly narrow.

I use my PZMs as rooms, further out and a little further apart. Then I use my Schoeps MK4s which are cardioid as overheads. Great combo IMO.

Thanks for the input. Yeah I sort of just threw them up as a starting point...The drums have been in situ for just a couple of days...I think I'll remove them...I tested just one last night directly over the kit and it sounded OK but I think I'll get better results with decent overheads...I'm not sure my room is that great sounding tbh.

Originally Posted by albee1952

My 2 cents(all replies here will be based on opinion).
B52 on kick is okay, but the Audix D6 and Telefunken M82 are a lot better
SM57 on snare, hard to go wrong with that(maybe add an under-snare mic)
SM57's on toms, not great at all. Sennheiser 421's are a great choice(but expensive). Alternatives that I love are Audix D6(rack toms) and Miktek PM11(floor toms)
Overheads; I think most any condenser will be a step up(the Rode's would be my choice of those you listed. I use Miktek C-1's here), BUT(great big BUT) the ceiling is a huge factor. If it is a hard surface(like painted drywall) you should try 2 options. #1-with small condenser mics, aim them at the ceiling, around 45 degrees and get the capsule as close to the ceiling as you can without actually touching it(this will act much like the PZM, but with better sound). I know many will roll their eyes at this, but it works quite well. #2-suspend a cloud to dampen the reflections from the ceiling into the backs of the mics.

More recommendations: 1-more corner treatment(fill the corner top to bottom, and treat the "corners" where the wall meets the ceiling)
2-turn the kit so it faces out from the corner(IOW, place it in the "VEE" of the corner). Right now, you have a serious acoustic imbalance between left and right

The problem is I'm short on space...I was thinking of leaving the kit where it is and putting a few EQ Acoustics Freespace panels on the open side of the kit and a couple on the side wall to balance the space out...

I have ordered some more bass traps to fill the corners...(I'm on a budget so need to be careful with my spends...) I'll look at filling the wall and ceiling parts next month when I get paid :)

I'm happy with the sound of the SM57 on the snare. And the B52 is doing its job after removing the front bass head and moving the mic closer to the batter head.

Originally Posted by mesaone

yeah those PZM overheads are definitely not following the 3:1 "rule" of stereo pair placement.. How does it sound with just one, directly over the center of the kit?

Can you save up for a pair of AKG C451B or similar? If not, are you adverse to trying out a pair of CAD M179? Maybe even just one M179 in omni would sound really good.

Looking at reviews and sound test's I'm not sure the AKG C451B is worth it over the Rode NT5's...Over here in the UK the AKG C451B are £500 for a pair and the NT5 £229..I'm can hear that the AKG C451B are better but not 100% more expensive better if you get what I mean...For £250 more I get into Neumann KM184 territory...Which I could use for acoustic Guitar recording too...The NT5 seem to do a good job of acoustic guitar duties too for the cost...Decisions Decisions

Originally Posted by guitardom

A bit off your post topic, but I bet the kit would sound a lot better away from the corner/walls.

I'm short on space...So I'm hoping to contain the sound with the EQ freespace panels...Thoughts?

Originally Posted by EGS

U87's are magic for OH's. But, that would be a huge investment. More in the real $$$ world - SM81's.

Yeah I need to be realistic when it comes to cost...Matched Pair Neumann km184 are £750 in the UK..I could push to this but it would have to be next month...NT5 are deemed the poor mans KM184 and don't seem to do a bad job at keeping up...?

Originally Posted by musicman691

Drum over heads - many options. Neumann TLM103's aren't too shabby (I have a pair), and neither are a pair of AKG C414's (I only have one). Another good choice is a decent ribbon mic. Ribbon mic's by design are figure 8 so properly setup overhead that'd work and so would the C414 in figure 8 mode. I wouldn't use SM57's as their off-axis response sucks big time and you need that for overheads.

As to spacing from the rear wall - not only what others have said but also think of the reflections coming off that wall and screwing up your timing (not to mention your hearing. There is an option if you can't move the kit - deaden the daylights out of the room especially that back wall and depend on reverb in your daw for ambiance. I know that's going back in time but if moving the kit isn't an option it could help out.

I'd also worry about the resonances/sounds coming off that space heater off to the front/side of the kit.

The heater! Yes I never thought of that...I think the easiest option is to surround the Kit with EQ freespace...

Originally Posted by albee1952

Nothing wrong with any of the above suggestions for overheads. The reason I did not expound past the mention of Miktek C-1's is that I thought they were likely more $$ than the OP wanted to spend. But for the price of a pair of U87's, you can have a pair of C-1's(or better yet, a pair of C-7's), a couple of D6's, a used AT3031(the best hat mic for under a grand) and all the other mics I mentioned(with money left over for preamps)

The Mitek C1 will run me £900 in the UK ...How do they compare with the KM184? Are they good for acoustic guitar ?

Originally Posted by EGS

Yes it does. For that reason I do not use a 57 on the snare, but rather an SM81 with the 10 pad engaged. The hat bleed into the snare mic is now interesting and useful. Try it!!!

TBH I'm satisfied with the SM57 on the snare...The Hayman 1972 snare drum is a cracker...

[easyrider]

4 mic setup

Audio Technica AT4041

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07KQk4YTde8

They sound great to my ears....

http://www.thomann.de/gb/audio_technica_at4041.htm


I think I need to narrow down my choices and stick to a budget of around £500Sterling.

Or I will go insane with choice.

[Marsdy]

The Mitek C1 will run me £900 in the UK ...How do they compare with the KM184? Are they good for acoustic guitar ?

For less than £900 you could buy a matched pair of KM184s. They're quite bright and "fizzy" though. You can sort of get round this by using the foam pop shield that comes with them. It wipes off some of the high end.

They work fine on acoustic guitar but as I say, they are quite bright. The old KM84 was probably THE go to mic for acoustic guitar but was less fizzy. I really like the KM184 on hi hats.

[musicman691]

Originally Posted by Marsdy

Ribbon mics are great if retro is you're thing but you NEED the right mic pre that caters for them.

Actually ribbon mics as overheads aren't that retro especially if you use the Royer ribbons - nothing at all like the sound from the AEA Big Ribbon mics. And the mic pre issue goes away if you use an active ribbon mic which Royer and AEA both make. Reason I like ribbons on overheads is they can cut some of the harshness that certain models of LDC's create.

As an aside since we also seem to be getting off the topic of overheads mics is an interesting one - mic a cymbal from the underside and run it through a Leslie sim. Gives you a different sound that may just work when nothing else does for cymbals.

[albee1952]

The UK price on the C-1 seems way high as they are $599US. KM184's would not be on my list(they are no KM84, for sure). I would take a pair of Miktek C-5's over the 184's, but I still think the Rode's will be fine C-7 is good on acoustic too. Royer's are great as well