What is the status on Music in the LFE in theatrical mixes

[houser]

Hi,

Just found time to check out the mixes of some contemporary Bluray discs.
Don't want to argue the case for anything today, just wondering what the status is on the hi-end Hollywood mixes: Does bass-managed music go in the LFE these days even in theatrical mixes? It sure sounds like that when going to certain theatres.

Related question:
Back in the Laserdisc days you had the chance to listen to the actual 5.1 theatrical mixes and study them. Now sourcing the theatrical mixes on Bluray seems to be pretty hard, as they are typically tweaked with regards to dialogue level, general dynamics and often even bass management on the music.

I wish I could buy BD with the original mixes on them.
Anyone with a strategy to find these?

thanx

[Cheesehead]

There are some threads on the Blu-rays with Theatrical mixes on them.
Master & Commander is one for sure and Megamind. I'm sure there are quite a few, mid budget feature film deliverables don't usually ask for a 'nearfield' mix, so most of those will have the Theatrical.

Personally I always feed the music to the Lfe. I like the way it sounds in the theatre and the Composers like it too. I reckon why not use it if its there to be used. A lot of other feature mixers appear to be doing the same from what I've seen on Bluray soundtracks.

[houser]

Hi Cheesehead

So your view is that many/most mixers these days put Music in the LFE?

Originally Posted by Cheesehead

There are some threads on the Blu-rays with Theatrical mixes on them.
Master & Commander is one for sure and Megamind. I'm sure there are quite a few, mid budget feature film deliverables don't usually ask for a 'nearfield' mix, so most of those will have the Theatrical.

Personally I always feed the music to the Lfe. I like the way it sounds in the theatre and the Composers like it too. I reckon why not use it if its there to be used. A lot of other feature mixers appear to be doing the same from what I've seen on Bluray soundtracks.

[tamasdragon]

I always ask the dubbing mixer. Some hate the idea and want music without LFE, some don't mind. If they let me, I'd still only use the LFE for some special things, but definitely not an always on.

[Cheesehead]

Hi Houser,
From the Blu-rays and DVD's I've looked at which apparently have original Theatrical mixes I would say yes, although its not quite as simple as that.

When I get music that has been mixed in 5.1 by the Composers I leave the Lfe content as it is in their mix.
However if the music is delivered Stereo, as is often the case in medium budget films, or if the music is from existing commercial recordings by other artists, I will add some Lfe to the stereo as part of the Upmix.
I believe many other mixers do the same.

But this doesn't necessarily apply to every track. Some pieces of orchestral or ambient /light sounding music don't need it and it would be detrimental to add it.
Like everything its a matter of taste.

[Bob Olhsson]

I was taught to NEVER put anything in LFE that wasn't an LFE that would "work perfectly" when played at + or - 10 dB. in a theater.

Back in the '90s a DBX Subharmonic Synthesizer was normaled to the LFE buss at the Skywalker dub stages.

[Rich Breen]

Theatrical score mixers are free to use the LFE channel as part of the music mix and many do - though not all. It is up to the dub mixer to dial it back or enhance it as he/she sees fit in the final mix. I think you're a little confused using the term "bass-managed music" - bass-management is part of the *playback* chain.

[houser]

Hi Rich,

Perhaps it is confusing to use the word "bass-managed" as part of the sound track that is on the BD, but it is technically what some mixers do, using a Penteo
or some other plugin to send music to the LFE. It is technically the same as bass management and I am not confused about the actual use of it.
I have found out as part of tuning rooms that has bass-management in the playback chain in the usual way. sounding weird in the LFE channel on some material.
Turns out we often get double the LFE content with two cross-overs of which the one on the BD is unknown, (but typically probably around 80Hz).
The so called "near field mix" can sound pretty good if you switch off the bass management in your playback chain and instead use the LFE on the BD (last week this was evident on the latest UHD release of Deadpool BTW)
This may be confusing to end users but not to me.
To get good-sounding LFE in your Home Cinema these days you need to check what is going on in the mix you are playing back to make sure you know what you are doing.

But I wish it was clearly labelled and that we could still get at least the actual dynamics of the theatrical mix on the BD. Like in the old days of Laser and such.. It used to be possible to check out and study the theatrical mix. These days not so much.

[mostlypost]

Just a quick reply to the original question. Not addressing post-mix, non-theatrical format prep or release.

Most score mixing at this point includes use of the LFE for subharmonics, size and impact of percussion, synths etc. where musically appropriate. This can be generated by a scoring or music mixer in a number of ways including the same subharmonic generators and plug-ins used by FX for explosions, gun shots, jail doors, etc. Sometimes it's purely musical. Sometimes it's used to generate reality such as dance venues, booming car-byes etc. (one of the best examples was the "Social Network" club balcony with a massive, pumping dance floor and a beautiful hole for dialog). Generally more attention is paid to the tonality of the effect because there is the pitch of bass notes, pads etc. to be dealt with and you're not just blowing stuff up.

Often that is delivered to the stage from music editorial and mixed to taste by the rerecording mixer. Sometimes for source music or needle-drops it is generated on the stage by the rerecording mixer.

Main music tracks (LCR etc) are EQed and mixed full-range to their assigned spaces (except, of course, when futzed) and bass management, if any, is left to the presenting venue. I have never seen music low end "managed" by filtering the mains and sending lower frequencies to the LFE, only enhanced by addition of the LFE.

In a home theater environment, your sub might certainly be more active with music due to management but there is also likely music material intentionally placed there from the original mix.

Just my experience.

Regards,

Robert Schaper

[houser]

Hi Mostlypost,

Thanx for that. I should perhaps mention that I have mixed for all formats for 25 years or so, so I am well aware of what you suggest in best practices over the years.

As I am semi-retired what I have however not been aware of is how music mixed into the LFE with "bass-managed" tech has taken hold in both hi-end "near field" mixes for BD as well as some theatrical mixes
released as is for BD. I stumbled onto this in tuning some Home Cinemas and the problems this can create in such an environment.

The short is that a discrete theatrical mix does not create any problems in a serious Home Cinema with no bass-management in the listening chain setup, a "near field mix" with bass managed music in a bass-managed listening set up can and does.

Thanx again!