Surround for Music productions - how are we doing?

[Chris Lambrechts]

I absolutely love mixing in surround ... I really do. The problem in my world - the music industry - is that one hardly ever get's a chance to do it.

I don't want to drag this into a discussion of how surround for music is not finding it's way to the consumer blah blah etc etc ...

There is a market for music DVD's, definately so for the 'live' music dvd concert or the major artist that allready has a load of video clips going for them etc. DVD video which gives us the possibility to work in surround. Yes ... definately BUT .... How about the slightly lower end of that market. The not so bigtime artist that cannot afford to fill up a football stadium and record everything with image. Or the local artist that cannot afford to have big budget video clips and all that. Should they not be allowed to be able to do DVD audio (or hybrid SACD's or whatever format in the future that allows multi channel mixes) ? I don't think so. On the contrary ... if and when whatever breakthrough for surround in music IS going to be succesfull we NEED to include those artists. Let's call them the 'limited budget' artist.

So .... I think it is safe to say that we can agree that downmixes or upmixes 999 out of 1000 simply suck. But you're facing a budget and you cannot afford to do seperate stereo and surround mixes right ?

Well ... thank you Ronald Prent and your API vision for inspiring me to do this but imvho the solution is right there under our very nose. It's called simultanuous mixing of both formats (stereo and surround) at the same time.

No Mr record company or whoever is paying the bill, it does not necessarily have to cost 2 x as much. I can do both for you during the same process.

Possible ? .... yes definately ...

Icon a system do do it with .... most certainly YES, especially since PT 7 providing us with 10 sends.

Is it tricky ? yes it is and it needs practice but I'm sure after my limited experience testing this that it can be done.

Here's how I have been doing it :

I run the surround mix on the faders and the stereo mix on send 10. My first 192 is used for monitoring. outputs 1 to 6 go to the 5.1 inputs on the X mon. And the stereo mix comes out of outputs 7/8 patched into the stereo 4 input of the Xmon.

So now I can have main + nearfield surround speakers serve 2 purposes at the same time. And all I have to do is push stereo 4 during playback and I'm listening to my stereo mix coming from send 10.

The send setup is the tricky part. Pre fader you'll say. Yes .... 7/10 that does the trick. But sometimes it doesn't and you still have to trim or automate those due to pan laws, the lack of a center channel in stereo that can mess up some balances at times. But it works. My main focus is the surround mix and I can tweak the stereo mix with the pre fader sends to recreate the same energy that is present in the stereo mix.

The current protools software provides all the tools necessary to do it and the D control is absolutely ready for it. It can only become better from now on.

I very very much miss for example the fact that the flip doesn't automatically flip the pan of the send.

The latest additions in copy to send are a gift from the gods to do this. The command has found it's way to position 1 of the user programmable softkeys. merely to copy the pan info coming from the surround channels to the stereo send. 9/10 this works realy well.

Oh, and all this is IN THE SAME SESSION. Dsp hungry yes for sure but hey ....

So ... does this mean that the current Icon configs are perfect to do this. hmmmmmm .... not quite yet. But I'm convinced they can be. Some minor behaviour changes adapted to the controller (flip with pan for example) and maybe some less minor changes and adapted / expanded changes to the Softwares current routing possibilities.

How about something like this : A dual pan mode per channel (one for surround and one for stereo) and then multiple automation playlists that can be switched on the fly during playback .... ok ok ok ... daydreaming but somewhere between now and that dream maybe.


My intentions for starting this thread ?

1. wondering if anyone else is doing this
2. maybe motivate someone to give it a try
3. inspire the whole world to start doing this so surround can become more popular and in demand in the music industry.
4. maybe if enough people are doing this digi developpers can take a look at it and come up with something genious like they usually do.
5. most importantly .... I hope that some of you can provide me with ideas / tips / techniques because I need them.

I know .... I'm somewhat of an idealist at times.

[filmixer]

>The problem in my world - the music industry - is that one hardly ever get's a chance to do it. <

And there you have it. If there is not a HUGE profit in it, the record companies have no motivation to fund it. Not only that, but a format war like with DVD-A/SACD, will always kill a new format for the consumer. A similar format war is brewing with HD-DVD/Blue Ray, and I think if it's not settled, there's a good possibility the film studios will bypass the whole thing and go directly to online downloads for HD video.

[volodia]

Hi,

Actually there's a hope for surround sound in music and it's Music TV Channels .

Many new channels affiliated to radio appeared in France and since they air in 5.1 the companies want the singles mixed in 5.1 .

May be this could start a trend .

To be honest I try to do a folddown mix of the 5.1 and then adjust a bit for the stereo version .

Volodia

[Chris Lambrechts]

And there you have it. If the there is no HUGE profit in it, the record companies have no motivation to fund it.

well .... that is why you have to tell them that it is not going to cost them all that much more.

We're moving towards a whole new approach of music anyhow. We - the engineers - have to adapt to those approaches and to some extend even try to help. It's far to easy to stick your head in the sand and say it's all ending up in an mp3 anyhow. The world downloads gigabites per second and the bandwith is allready plenty there NOT to take file sizes as an excuse.

Fwiw ... I'm referring to the music industry but while at it sincerely hope the movie industry draws their lessons from what happened to the music industry over the last decade. They're up next and I'm not saying this lightly. I remember Rich Nevens showing us a pirate DVD of the last Star Wars movie which I believe he was able to buy off the streets somewhere in Asia for a couple of bucks. And this was BEFORE the movie was even in theaters. (you can correct me if I'm wrong Rich)

Anyhow ... the exact reason why I'm interested in doing this is NOT to affect budgets and still do it. F*ck mp3's ... you'll get your surround mix wether you like it or not attitude is in order here. Digital TV / digital radio .... they'll go multichannel at some point ... I'm sure of it.

[Chris Lambrechts]

To be honest I try to do a folddown mix of the 5.1 and then adjust a bit for the stereo version .

Volodia

shame on you

Kinda half kidding but at the same time trying to make a point. Don't let surround become part of the entire mp3 attitude loudness whatever war and take your reponsibility as an engineer.

[filmixer]

>well .... that is why you have to tell them that it is not going to cost them all that much more. <

I know it won't cost that much more for you to give them a surround mix. It's the cost of manufacture, packaging, distribution, marketing, and having the record stores dedicate space for surround product. Most people under 25 years old have hardly ever bought any physical CDs, except blank ones to make bootleg copies. I think you're under estimating how much internet downloading has influenced how younger consumers aquire and listen to music. You can't listen to a surround mix on an iPod, or anything else except for a dedicated 5.1 channel Hi-Fi or Home Theater system. Unless something dramatic happens with surround capabilities in cars, I'd say surround for music is dead. No one cares but us.

[kptkarl]

>You can't listen to a surround mix on an iPod, or anything else except for a dedicated 5.1 channel Hi-Fi or Home Theater system.

I know its a bit cheesy but one could make a dolby headphone mp3/aac for ipod/portables.

[Chris Lambrechts]

I think you're under estimating how much internet downloading has influenced how younger consumers aquire and listen to music.

On the contrary .... I think it should even be used to re-educate wherever possible. Bandwith is no longer an excuse and still increasing. Why bother putting up full resolution audio files. Because I-pods want a bizillion songs ? Nah .... I'm sure more and more people are going to store they're music on computers .... video is definately up next .... I have friends setting up home 'domotica' systems with airport extreme's and the likes. Digital TV is just around the corner. People are starting to build houses with home cinema integrated in the walls. Multichannel is not dead ... on the contrary ... it's under development. Video games come in surround ,,,, soundblasters have surround on board .... multichannel downloads are within the reach of technology.

[filmixer]

>Digital TV is just around the corner. People are starting to build houses with home cinema integrated in the walls. Multichannel is not dead ... on the contrary ... it's under development. Video games come in surround ,,,, soundblasters have surround on board .... multichannel downloads are within the reach of technology.<

Surround sound for film, TV and video games is part of the expected cinematic experience when there is action on a screen. Sound for picture will continue to drive purchases of surround capable playback equipment. Surround sound for a strictly musical experience is what's failing. I personally enjoy a great surround presentation of an album, but I'm the minority. I have a fairly good collection of surround music titles, but I actually don't know too many other people that do. And most of my friends are in the music and film business! Let me ask you Chris, how many surround music only titles have you purchased in the last year? There are a lot of great ones. You should have them all. Not only to enjoy but also to listen to what other mixers are doing in this field. I know it's difficult to even find surround albums in a record store. I'm in L.A. and when I go into a big record store like Virgin or Tower and ask where to find their surround titles, I'll either get the "quizzical dog tilting his head" look or they'll say, "oh, they're just mixed in with the other titles by the artists, you'll just have to search around". Huh? I can see there's some real marketing muscle being put into this surround thing. Anyway, I just think the reality is that surround music titles are just a PITA for the record companies and a source of confusion for the average consumer. The format war isn't helping either. I think its sad because there's a lot of great work being done. Maybe if the record companies would put out some current titles and not just more catalog material (I know "Dark Side of the Moon" is cool, but my 10 year old niece hasn't even heard of "Guns & Roses") they might be able to reverse the downward trend in surround music sales, but I just don't think it's going to happen. One of my best friends owns NRG Recording out here and works with some of the top artist there are. You know how many requests he's gotten from the record companies for surround mixes, even for bands like "Evanescence"? None. And there you have it. Sad but true.
So, how many surround music titles do you own? How about your best friend? Let us know your favorites.

[Chris Lambrechts]

I entirely see your points film .... and unfortunately have to agree with most of them.

- direct friends who have surround mixes (audio not video) .... 1 (sad I know)
- me : quite a collection of DVD video music stuff varying from live concerts (like 25 of them or so) to 'album' stuff with video clips like Janet Jackson / Destiny's child and a few others (7 or 8)
DVD Audio : Steely Dan - Gaucho / Lyle Lovett - Joshua something (can't remember the exact name the disc is at the studio) / Diana Krall - Love scenes / Tchaikovsky nutcracker / Sting - summoner tales / Porcupine tree - dead wing (?)

Unfortunately all DVD audio's were bought online ... as I have yet to find one single DVD audio in a music store 'round here so yes .... I hear you. And I do listen and take inspiration from how and what people like Elliot Scheiner and the likes mix.

We'll see .... so far I've only had to propose it once .... the next project I'm working on for an independant rec company said 'yes we'll take the surround mix as well' although like you mentioned in a previous post ... it remains to be seen if they will actually do something with it 'cause of course that will cost them extra too.