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  #21  
Old 09-23-2011, 11:37 AM
Maskeeper Maskeeper is offline
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Default Re: Undipped music stem

While this may be AETN stance, many deliverables specifically call for one stem to be 'undipped for VO' (mix minus for Discovery for example) while a different stem is undipped for VO and dialog (again Discovery Music)-- which is a different thing.

The wording in the specifications sheets is specifically different, so we deliver each item as requested...
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  #22  
Old 09-13-2012, 08:56 AM
colinato colinato is offline
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Smile Re: Undipped music stem

@ mikerophonics

As you can see from the number of posts i've made, I really do not post often other than to answer/ask a question, but I just could not help myself this time. Please don't take me too seriously, as I'm mostly just letting off some steam.

The angel on my should responds:

Thank you, mikerophonics, for your thoughtful insight into re-versioning mixes for foreign language. I appreciate your willingness to share your knowledge and tips on session setup and mixing, and for making things as easy as possible for everyone involved.

I was looking at some specs recently for the latest show I will be working on and it reminded me of a disturbing trend in the ever increasing number of audio deliverables required by networks these days (mostly reality networks).

Stereo full mix
M&E undipped for narration AND dialoguee
DME dipped for narration AND dialogue
DME undipped for narration
Stereo music undipped for narration AND dialogue
Stereo FX undipped for narration AND dialogue
Mono DX unbleeped
Mono Narration

And that's not even getting into 5.1 deliverables.

These on top of the "dipped" versions which are used to create the actual final english mix. And, since you mentioned budgets, why is it that it's always the reality networks, which have the smallest budgets, are requiring these things. It's hard enough for a small/medium sized post house to get these jobs within budget just to get a final english mix out the door.

The devil on my should responds:

I was looking at some specs today for a show I will be starting soon and was sickened by what they are asking for (the stems stated above). I've recorded, edited, re-versioned, and mixed thousands of episodes of major network American shows into other languages and have never, Ever, EVER received any undipped stems, nor would I ever, Ever, EVER ask a mixer to provide them to me. Could you imagine if you had to actually ask the mixer this as opposed to just complaining to a network about why it takes the amount of time it does to do your job? Would that conversation sound like this?:

"Um, excuse me, mister mixer, could you also send with that Printmaster, M&E, and million other stems you just created, an undipped version, and maybe some undipped music, and undipped FX. And while you're at it could you create another version that's just dipped for narration and one that's dipped for narration and dialogue. What's that? You have a deadline and budget? Oh, well, could you just basically recreate your template and change you mix setup into a F@$#ing mess to more accommodate my workflow? It's really not that hard and it would make my life a lot easier (ie. you could do most of my job for me). And, you know what, could you wrap that in a nice pretty bow and send it over on a silver platter? Hello? Hello, are you still there? My phone must be cutting out..." Dial tone sounds... a phone rings somewhere down the hall... the sound of footsteps slowly grows ever louder until your mix room door flies open! "You're fired!" screams your boss.

I'm sorry if you have to push a couple extra faders to smooth out some music or effects. I'm sorry if you have to cut in a piece of music here and there from that music stem I provided you to work around some extended VO lines. I'm sorry if you have to share in a small slice of the misery that we have to deal with in creating these ridiculous deliverables for you. And i'm sorry I didn't wrap it in a #$%^ing bow for you. So could you please take some pride in your work as a mixer, do your job and mix. You've got undipped music, you've got undipped FX, you've got an M$E. You don't need fifteen other versions of M&Es, DMEs, music, and fx to do your job in a timely manner.
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  #23  
Old 09-13-2012, 09:07 AM
MIKEROPHONICS's Avatar
MIKEROPHONICS MIKEROPHONICS is offline
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Default Re: Undipped music stem

.......and while you are at it can I have a mix that is undipped for anything and has no salt or pepper and is out of sync and has un corrected edits - no wait - that's the omf!

Pillocks - they know not what they ask for.

Educate your clients as to what is reasonable and cost effective to produce and why! If they still persist with such nonsense all you can do is bill them for the extra time it takes to make them and smile at them for paying for your next ski holiday

cheers
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  #24  
Old 09-21-2012, 10:36 PM
KingTor KingTor is offline
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Default Re: Undipped music stem

This whole thread is why deliverables is the first question we ask clients before bidding a project. If they don't know, we tell them what we'll deliver and that anything else will cost more. I was on a dub stage in Germany when an M&E got kicked back as unmixable, and I tell my clients that is a phone call they never want to get--and I believe the key to good deliverables is to ask myself what I would want with me if I was going to be on that stage in Germany.
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  #25  
Old 09-22-2012, 07:35 AM
Brandonx1 Brandonx1 is offline
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Default Re: Undipped music stem

Quote:
Originally Posted by MIKEROPHONICS View Post
.......and while you are at it can I have a mix that is undipped for anything and has no salt or pepper and is out of sync and has un corrected edits - no wait - that's the omf!

Pillocks - they know not what they ask for.

Educate your clients as to what is reasonable and cost effective to produce and why! If they still persist with such nonsense all you can do is bill them for the extra time it takes to make them and smile at them for paying for your next ski holiday

cheers
I think the issue is the networks are not paying anymore, just asking for more deliverables.
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  #26  
Old 11-23-2012, 03:35 AM
wheresmyfroggy wheresmyfroggy is offline
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Default Re: Undipped music stem

We have recently completed 2 big Drama/Recon documentary series where we have been requested this style of undipped stems, luckily the two series' were:

a) Stereo

b) mainly Narration led and contained sparse interviews

It actually went pretty smoothly, just slight changes to mix workflow and a more convoluted bussing setup than normal.

I can imagine it would have been a lot more 'interesting' had they been dialogue led shows and particularly more if they were 5.1 as well.
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  #27  
Old 01-13-2013, 05:33 AM
Postman Postman is offline
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Default Re: Undipped music stem

Yes it gets worse and worse (see my last paragraph). Today I generate deliverables for 4 hour-long episodes for PBS, that we finished yesterday.
Each hour has a bunch of pop songs that are used for initial broadcast. Each hour is also remixed with library cuts and "upside down" versions of all pop songs, for home video and international use.

For each of the eight hours I output:
5.1 full mix (which will NOT be broadcast or screened! for home video I guess)
LtRt (stereo) full mix
Mono fullmix
LtRt DME mix undipped for narration
Mono "VO" stem (narration and talk-over not directly connected to on-camera. This is not typical, requires rebussing)
Mono "Dialog", (includes whatever is left over from above and other sync dialog) undipped for "VO"
Stereo sfx stem undipped for all
Stereo Music stem undipped for all
Mono Narration+Dialog (for promo department)
Mono Music+Effects undipped (for promo department)

At least they aren't demanding fully filled mixes, not yet anyway, and no one has asked for 5.1 international stems (only stereo). The promo department mixes are not spec'd anywhere in writing (at least not to me) but were demanded by the sponsor station after I delivered the first set of broadcast mixes.

The post-audio budget is smaller (per minute) than previous work for the same client. There are three times more producers now than on those previous projects. Why do you suppose there is no money for more deliverables?
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  #28  
Old 01-15-2013, 05:43 AM
wheresmyfroggy wheresmyfroggy is offline
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Default Re: Undipped music stem

Quote:
Originally Posted by Postman View Post

For each of the eight hours I output:
5.1 full mix (which will NOT be broadcast or screened! for home video I guess)
LtRt (stereo) full mix
Mono fullmix
LtRt DME mix undipped for narration
Mono "VO" stem (narration and talk-over not directly connected to on-camera. This is not typical, requires rebussing)
Mono "Dialog", (includes whatever is left over from above and other sync dialog) undipped for "VO"
Stereo sfx stem undipped for all
Stereo Music stem undipped for all
Mono Narration+Dialog (for promo department)
Mono Music+Effects undipped (for promo department)

Ouch!

Big question, did you manage to setup a session that outputted all of those deliverables in one pass?

If not.........my thoughts are with you..........
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  #29  
Old 01-16-2013, 05:41 AM
Postman Postman is offline
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Default Re: Undipped music stem

No, three passes per show. Too easy to make mistakes otherwise.
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  #30  
Old 01-24-2013, 01:36 PM
CD Productions CD Productions is offline
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Default Re: Undipped music stem

If you had a music stem, flatlined(lets be nice, and have it at a consistent level), and an FX stem flat, and an Sot flat, is it too much to ask the person doing the foreign to juggle 4 faders! Why the MnE, undipped? Why the DMnE? The separate stems would provide the promo people what they need as well. I have mixed tons of promos and trailers. Never used an MnE. Ever. I'm not an expert in mixing foreign dubs, I've only ever done one. I used the separate MX and FX stems, and my main concern was eq and reverb for the dubbed DX to put it in the rooms. Am I missing something? The one that cracks me up is the DMnE for a show where the only VO is "Next on....".
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