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  #51  
Old 03-13-2009, 04:13 PM
peppertree peppertree is offline
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Default Re: Comparison of HD, LE and M-Powered?

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Originally Posted by darrena View Post
Well what this says to me more is that using a DAW without delay compensation is probably completely unacceptable for me rather than i need to buy new hardware ;-)
If you are working 100% native ITB then you probably don't need to worry about delay compensation though. Delay compensation comes up with only a minority of fully native plugins. Hardware accelerated plugins and hardware inserts it is a problem for. On the 2 bus it is only a problem at tracking time.

But I agree the crippling of the native Pro Tools line is unacceptable.
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  #52  
Old 03-13-2009, 04:47 PM
darrena darrena is offline
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Default Re: Comparison of HD, LE and M-Powered?

I don't have a UAD2 or anything like that. I'm 100% native. I thought that any plugin that used lookahead (compressors and the like) created delays. Maybe I'm all worried about nothing?

I have noticed in Acid that heavy-duty masteing plugs create delay, but I only put them on the master (and disable them when I'm not using them).

Not being familiar with what's available for RTAS, let me throw out some names of VST/DX plugs that I have had some experience with and you can tell me if equivalent RTAS plugs would cause delays:

- URS Strip Pro
- Sonnox Dynamics
- Waves RVerb
- PSP Vintage Warmer
- CamelSpace (don't think Camel Audio makes RTAS, but maybe there's something like that)

Also, does the lack of plugin delay compensation also affect synths? Given Omnisphere is definitely my most expensive investment in a single virtual instrument I'd love to know if that's a concern.
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  #53  
Old 03-13-2009, 05:35 PM
peppertree peppertree is offline
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Default Re: Comparison of HD, LE and M-Powered?

(I don't know the delays of all RTAS plugins maybe someone else can help)
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  #54  
Old 03-14-2009, 01:53 AM
jojo99 jojo99 is offline
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Default Re: Comparison of HD, LE and M-Powered?

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Originally Posted by darrena View Post

I have noticed in Acid that heavy-duty masteing plugs create delay, but I only put them on the master (and disable them when I'm not using them).

Ok, this will translate to any application you're considering, you really shouldn't be adding anything to the master bus as you're working/composing (until it's time to do so). I don't like saying "that's wrong" because there's more than one way to skin the cat...but in this case I don't mind saying, "you're doing it wrong".

I know, you're trying to tame/shape levels and tone as you're working. No-no, especially when the goal is composing, then creating really great mixes (for great masters).
* And then you're throwing omnisphere in the game too?
Lower the track volumes as needed to avoid overs as you work/compose, but keep away from the master bus until it's time to work there. Maybe some fx (delays/phasers/dist/whatever) on select tracks as needed for composition.
Then aid the mix in using quality eq/comp on a track and/or bus as needed. Then maybe MBdynamics, MBEQ and a limit.
Then quality mastering plugs when it comes time to master (I like to master in a good 2-track editng app btw).
The above translates from working in Acid to any other app you're thinking of purchasing. Sorry.

What are the "mastering" plugins you're using on the master bus btw? Please list.
If it's any of the ones you've listed (maybe with the exception of the Sonnox), please re-read part of the previous reply (the part talking about working with some quality plugins).
I know it sucks to spend $, but using PSPVintage to force some semblance of mix/masters...

Well, try out some better plugins and think about making a move there.

good luck
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  #55  
Old 03-14-2009, 01:59 AM
jojo99 jojo99 is offline
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Default Re: Comparison of HD, LE and M-Powered?

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Originally Posted by peppertree View Post
Firewire either works or it doesn't...
Sorry, I do not agree with that. Time, trial, and error being my guide.
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  #56  
Old 03-14-2009, 08:38 AM
darrena darrena is offline
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Default Re: Comparison of HD, LE and M-Powered?

They way you describe it is how I *usually* work. I mostly don't do anything in the master. I buss everything and lower the busses until I can keep the master at 0 without clipping. I usually use a dynamics plug on most busses (frequently all of them).

That's pretty conventional.

However, I can get the same result as if I mastered in Sound Forge by putting the mastering plug or chain of mastering FX on the Master Buss and just rendering with it on. (I'm not saying leave it on all the time, I'm just saying when you are ready to master.)

After all it's doing the exact same thing to the WAV, right?

But this method gives me the extra flexibility of being able to control more variables during mastering. For example, if I render to a WAV and then master and discover that I'm getting too much bass, in SF I only have the master's EQ and compression to play with, but if I put it on the master buss, I can also tweak the bass and drums buss volumes. Another example is that sometimes you find that an effect like reverb sounds "just right" on a track before the mastering and sounds too wet after. Can't do much about that in a 2-step mastering process using Sound Forge (unless you want to go back and re-render the 2ch WAV).

So you see why my template has a mastering plug on the master (but it's disabled) from the get-go.

So! Now that we have my motivation for that covered, I should talk about my workflow.

Since I'm primarilly a song writer and I'm not really an engineer, I go through the most of the composition and experimentation part of the process in my DAW (today Acid Pro 7). That means trying out new synth patches, FX, etc. on different tracks yadda yadda...

Flow:

1. Compose "bones" on real live piano (chords, melody)
2. Score basics in MIDI
3. Add loop-based rhythm tracks
4. EXPERIMENTATION: Flesh out MIDI-based score, try to find good sounds (using different patches, FX, tweaking things). This often involves looping a part of the composition and flipping through presets, messing with FX chains, etc. to find a rough sound I like.
5. Arrange
6. Write lyrics
7. Record live tracks
8. MIXING: now I worry about levels, EQ, pan, final FX chains
9. MASTERING

So during #4 above, I turn on the mastering plug. I turn it off usually before #7 above and leave it off until #9. I turn it on in #4 because I have come damn close to accidentally blowing my monitors out during the experimentation phase because a synth patch or an effect surprises me and jumps my levels from comfortable to INSANE with one click of the button.

Does that make sense?

I will check out MBDynamics, etc.
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  #57  
Old 03-14-2009, 09:23 AM
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TOM@METRO TOM@METRO is offline
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Default Re: Comparison of HD, LE and M-Powered?

As has been said earlier in this thread, "there’s more than one way to skin a cat." I have used Mastering plug-ins on the Master Fader just to check for something I may have overlooked sonically, but then I disable it and mix without it.
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