Are we not due an update??!!

[Akiz]

Originally Posted by JingleDjango

...but Logic Pro X has never been a good comparison.

He didn't compare Pro Tools vs Logic Pro X, feature wise.
He pointed out, that Apple updates Logic relatively frequently, with bug fixes and extra features, with NO EXTRA CHARGE, where Pro Tools gets one update here and there and users have paid upfront the what's called "annual plan".
That's the issue!

I can say the same for Studio One , frequently updates, with features and fixes with no charge. Reaper the same....

The elephant in the room is that Pro Tools development sucks....and people have payed upfront for very little to nothing in return....

I won't mention the ****ty "free" loops, effects and such....it is insulting enough to count that as delivered goods from Avid's side, especially for the Ultimate users @ $399/year. Ridiculous!


Cheers!

[JingleDjango]

He pointed out, that Apple updates Logic relatively frequently, with bug fixes and extra features, with NO EXTRA CHARGE, where Pro Tools gets one update here and there and users have paid upfront the what's called "annual plan".
That's the issue!


This is exactly what my comment was meant to address.

[jasonkalman]

I've become resigned to the fact that I'll stay current with my subscription for little more than OS updates. There really is no substitute for HDX when tracking live instruments. Nothing on the market comes close to the low latency. The closest is Apogee but they are still off by .4 ms which might not seem like a lot but it is.

[Blinkofani]

Originally Posted by JingleDjango

I'm as frustrated with AVID as the next Pro Tools user but Logic Pro X has never been a good comparison. Part of the cost of admission is buying an Apple computer. LPX development isn't funded by your one-time App Store payment but by margins on the hardware that runs it. Consequently, you're locked into the macOS environment if you want to continue using the DAW. This is meant to drive future hardware sales. For all we know Apple is pushing LPX as a loss-leader with no intention to profit from the sale of the software.

Someday, I’d like someone with real inside knowledge of the business to tell me if a software like Logic Pro can really be seen as a loss-leader vs hardware, computers in the case of Apple. I mean, yes it’s inexpensive for what you get at 199$USD but if they need to sell, say, 15 000 copies to be breakeven with R&D costs, all the copies after that point are 100% profit, no shipping, no nothing. The computers are a bit more expensive than a Windows PC equivalent( it’s been pretty much proven that if you buy the same quality components, a Mac is not that much more expensive, but anyway) but Apple needs to buy components and build the computer so a computer will never be 100% profit for Apple, from 1st to last unit.

Anybody knows how much, say, a 2019 15-inch MBP base model cost in components AND manufacturing AND all marketing/retail channel “fees” vs the selling price? Is it 10, 15, 20, 30% gross margin?

Blink

[jasonkalman]

Originally Posted by Blinkofani

Someday, I’d like someone with real inside knowledge of the business to tell me if a software like Logic Pro can really be seen as a loss-leader vs hardware, computers in the case of Apple. I mean, yes it’s inexpensive for what you get at 199$USD but if they need to sell, say, 15 000 copies to be breakeven with R&D costs, all the copies after that point are 100% profit, no shipping, no nothing. The computers are a bit more expensive than a Windows PC equivalent( it’s been pretty much proven that if you buy the same quality components, a Mac is not that much more expensive, but anyway) but Apple needs to buy components and build the computer so a computer will never be 100% profit for Apple, from 1st to last unit.

Anybody knows how much, say, a 2019 15-inch MBP base model cost in components AND manufacturing AND all marketing/retail channel “fees” vs the selling price? Is it 10, 15, 20, 30% gross margin?

Blink

This has been discussed in a Gearslutz thread: https://www.gearslutz.com/board/elec...-so-cheap.html

Yes, Apple undercuts the competition by selling Logic Pro X at a loss. This loss is minuscule compared to the profit margins Apple makes by selling Macs. Avid needs to actually make money off of Pro Tools. The problem is, their subscription model offers zero benefit to the consumer and there in-lies the problem. If Avid went back to the old model of selling new versions of Pro Tools when they actually had updates to offer, while offering free updates (including OS compatibility) in between new releases, their customers would be much happier.

Once another company offers the same low latency as Avid, I think Avid will quickly either change direction or go bankrupt.

[deanrichard]

I assume you mean low latency with FX, correct? Because obviously there are many zero latency interfaces that can monitor directly off the HW interface itself, regardless of the DAW being used. Most have their own monitor mixing app, and setting up monitor mixes is a hassle, but is viable. But most don't include DSP for FX. Also, I don't own one, but how do the UAD interfaces compare to PT and Apogee?

Originally Posted by jasonkalman

I've become resigned to the fact that I'll stay current with my subscription for little more than OS updates. There really is no substitute for HDX when tracking live instruments. Nothing on the market comes close to the low latency. The closest is Apogee but they are still off by .4 ms which might not seem like a lot but it is.

[Blinkofani]

Originally Posted by jasonkalman

This has been discussed in a Gearslutz thread: https://www.gearslutz.com/board/elec...-so-cheap.html

Yes, Apple undercuts the competition by selling Logic Pro X at a loss. This loss is minuscule compared to the profit margins Apple makes by selling Macs. Avid needs to actually make money off of Pro Tools. The problem is, their subscription model offers zero benefit to the consumer and there in-lies the problem. If Avid went back to the old model of selling new versions of Pro Tools when they actually had updates to offer, while offering free updates (including OS compatibility) in between new releases, their customers would be much happier.

Once another company offers the same low latency as Avid, I think Avid will quickly either change direction or go bankrupt.

Thanks for the reply but a Gearslutz thread is hardly real inside knowledge of the business

Anyway, I don’t want to go any further than this as my post is way off topic but in that thread, that I didn’t read the full 4 pages, it didn’t take long that it was mostly posts by Apple haters and the question isn’t really answered in the end. How many copies does Apple need to sell before they’re break even with R&D? All copies sold after that number is 100% profit so I’m not so sure Logic is a “loss leader”.

Like a lot people here I’m sure, I know people who bought Logic but are not that much in Audio production, but because it’s 200$ they bought it because they needed to work on audio and didn’t want to bother with GarageBand. If you lower the price of your product so much that you sell a crazy number of copies, you’ll end up making a good profit, if we’re talking software and not hardware goods.

The one sure thing in the advantage of Apple is they have the funds upfront to finance the R&D so if profit comes later on during the product’s life, they can live with it without loosing sleep. Which could be different when talking about a company whose main revenue is the lowered priced product.

Blink

[capt kirk]

Poor Avid is caught in a world where theyre trying to remain relevant, and keep thier legacy users, at the same time. How do you do that? Well you offer the millenial DJ's free glowing synths and GB's of useless loops....for the legacy professional ADULT user.......well its kinda like this....see....we kinda understand that if we 'fix everything', you wont buy anything from us ever again, hence the subscription 'hope and change' business model.....but they convieniently forgot the 'fix everything' part. Which can NEVER happen because of the 8000 pound gorilla, who smashes everything every 18 months. So what do we, PRO ADULT users do?
what i've said here, many times. Lock it down. problem solved, or get back on that hamster wheel....i think they might regret opening up the hardware too at some point...

[capt kirk]

if you feel like you wanna try stuff, do what we did, get a cheap used macbook pro and put mojave or whatever on it, and download crap to your hearts content....if you find something you cant live without, well then youre at an inflection point. kinda like your wife......

[jasonkalman]

Originally Posted by deanrichard

I assume you mean low latency with FX, correct? Because obviously there are many zero latency interfaces that can monitor directly off the HW interface itself, regardless of the DAW being used. Most have their own monitor mixing app, and setting up monitor mixes is a hassle, but is viable. But most don't include DSP for FX. Also, I don't own one, but how do the UAD interfaces compare to PT and Apogee?

Dean,
Exactly. I don't want to use a monitor mixing app when recording. Pro Tools with HDX is elegant in that it is able to provide low latency directly within the DAW while tracking. Mixing is a different story. I don't care about latency while mixing because once the instruments are tracked, you can easily mix on a Thunderbolt system without the issue of latency. Tracking low latency (without FX) and without a monitor mixing app is what I'm looking for. Right now Pro Tools with HDX is the only solution on the market that I know with sub 1ms rtl. If there is a system out there please let me know. I can't find it.
thanks,
Jason