Sound Quality issue

[Soeren]

Hello all,

For a while I ve been having a problem, when I listen to professional musics, their instruments sound pure and clear.

In my concern I use Kontakt instruments with a protools duet sound card 192 khz 24 bits, and I can figure when I crank the volume a bit for final mix, not above the limit though, that it gets crushed and saturated sound very unpleasant and unharmonic to hear, like a whole mess of instruments stuck together, say for orchestra and so on...

I'm looking for settings improvement I could have missed, but this is a total enigma for me, because this tools are made for quality sound, and their original recording should sound good enough. What should I try to do to improve ?

Thank you

[musicman691]

Originally Posted by Soeren

Hello all,

For a while I ve been having a problem, when I listen to professional musics, their instruments sound pure and clear.

In my concern I use Kontakt instruments with a protools duet sound card 192 khz 24 bits, and I can figure when I crank the volume a bit for final mix, not above the limit though, that it gets crushed and saturated sound very unpleasant and unharmonic to hear, like a whole mess of instruments stuck together, say for orchestra and so on...

I'm looking for settings improvement I could have missed, but this is a total enigma for me, because this tools are made for quality sound, and their original recording should sound good enough. What should I try to do to improve ?

Thank you

Why are you using 24/192? There's no reason to do so for most people. Read this thread: http://duc.avid.com/showthread.php?t=390984 and the article I linked to. Unless your whole playback system is up to snuff it'll sound just like you're experiencing. 24/44.1 or 24/48 if you're doing video is about all you'll need.

[Soeren]

Thanx for helping.

I did several tests, root instruments combination in a 44 khz session, instead of 192. Nothing change at all, it sound good on medium level, but saturated on high volume. I've tried leveling volume with different tools, as well as getting it loud straight from kontakt. Made special care that no instrument pass the red line and Ive put limiters.

I'm gonna try some other stuffs, but I thing its just a matter of soundbank quality. Real groups don't use virtual instruments, or then electronical ones like hip hop or techno. Demos I've heard of orchestra softwares were made with 40 k dollars hardware, so I guess I just have to deal with it....

any other Idea is welcome

[musicman691]

Originally Posted by Soeren

Thanx for helping.

I did several tests, root instruments combination in a 44 khz session, instead of 192. Nothing change at all, it sound good on medium level, but saturated on high volume. I've tried leveling volume with different tools, as well as getting it loud straight from kontakt. Made special care that no instrument pass the red line and Ive put limiters.

I'm gonna try some other stuffs, but I thing its just a matter of soundbank quality. Real groups don't use virtual instruments, or then electronical ones like hip hop or techno. Demos I've heard of orchestra softwares were made with 40 k dollars hardware, so I guess I just have to deal with it....

any other Idea is welcome

You have a lot to learn about gain-staging. You really shouldn't rely on limiters - that can be why your stuff sounds squashed and like crud. I only use a limiter as a brickwall device to catch the odd peak. I suggest getting a good metering plugin like the Brainworx bx-meter at https://www.plugin-alliance.com/en/p.../bx_meter.html
Pay attention to what the display is showing you. Certainly soundbank quality can play a part but the stuff done for Kontakt is of decent quality but it's all in how you use it.

A good mix should have dynamics (Metallica's Death Magnetic not withstanding). If your final two-track waveform looks like a solid brick then you have a serious problem in your workflow. What exact plugins are you using on that final two-bus?

[Soeren]

Watch the attachement.

Hear this link, and crank volume up.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2D...ew?usp=sharing

looks computerish, and not real pure sound

[DonaldM]

First of all, its a pretty piece of music. Without seeing exactly how you have everything set up, or what plugins you're using its difficult to comment on what may be causing the issues you describe.

However, if I might suggest a couple of things. Have the audio output from each instrument module in Kontakt go to its own AUX track in Pro Tools. Adjust the output volume from Kontakt so that the meter on the AUX track is just into yellow. Think of it this way. If you were recording live players, with all sorts of mics coming into the recording booth, you'd adjust the gain on the incoming mic signal to get a clean signal on the audio recording. Essentially, that's what you're doing here with Kontakt. Think of the mixer in Kontakt as your line in mixer for your instrument recordings. Get as a clean a signal as you can. That's how I do it with East-West or Omnisphere or any other VI.

Once you're satisfied with you levels, then you can commit to audio. Once in audio, if you need a bit more gain, you can use clip gain a bit...but be careful with that too. Add your fx (delay, reverb, eq whatever you're doing). You shouldn't need a lot of compression on orchestral type instruments. Less is more.

Watch the meter on your Master fader. Keep it around -6db to -8db.

An orchestral track like this isn't going to be at the radio ready volume levels you hear in pop or dance music. Its a different kind of mix altogether.

I personally don't have Kontakt, but from all I've ready, they have some really nice orchestral sounds to work with and there are any number of good sample libraries out there for it. Its a real art to get good orchestral sound from sample libraries. There's a lot tweaking, sometimes working with different sample articulations for the same instrument track and all that.

Also, don't be afraid to layer up you're sounds to fill them out and add some depth. Pay attention to EQ as well. There's a lot to it.

Also, I think Jack was right. You shouldn't need to work beyond 44.1k sample rate, 24bit. (Unless you're scoring for video, in which case use 48k sample rate). The higher sample rates won't do you much good unless you're working on some really high end stuff in post-audio or big production.

Another issue could be your studio monitors. How does your mix sound on different speakers?

Good luck

[Soeren]

Hello,

I'm really glad about your answer, you got it right*!

First this is a reality, I havent checked the in signal loudness level in root plugin. This could make a huge difference...its a basic actually...

Concerning clip gain, I was wondering if Normalize function in protools wouldnt be the best solution*? Gain is actually getting saturation. May be a maximizer like izotope or else.

Compression can come useful when parts decrease to -20 db. Should stay in a proper range hearable in all kind of hardware.

And what about that – 8 db*?? Do you think I should*decrease that far*?? I remember back days posting musics on soundcloud with -3db to -6db. I never had any listener. As soon as I cranked to -0,3 db people started to listen. Music is not enjoyable if you can't hear even with max level in headphone ( let say for smartphones for example ). but I get your point, pop and classical are not same standards.

For the rest this is the kind of work I try to do, and thats nice you give me advices on that.

EQ are a problem, I work EQ hard on strings, and doing so I lose plenty of volume, which I have to increase back afterwards, so a risk of quality loss...One tool could work great while other analog one could destroy the work, so best way is to check sound pureness by increasing volume in the monitoring.

For my comps, my monitoring speakers sound great, but not my headphones ( 60$ Sony + other ones). I have headphones for the bass, others for treble, mids etc... This problem is happing on my neutral Sony headphone that has the best balanced quality. A broadcast music from radio sounds 10 times better in the same one. I have this frustration to make orchestra that scream agressively to the ears, and that just spoil everything, especially for strings tracks. This is not consciously noticeable however.

But I'm gonna try a volume watch in the whole process, kontakt aux + different maximizer tools etc...

Thanks very much for your help.
I'll let you know*!


https://soundcloud.com/sorennoirot/sets

[musicman691]

Originally Posted by DonaldM

First of all, its a pretty piece of music. Without seeing exactly how you have everything set up, or what plugins you're using its difficult to comment on what may be causing the issues you describe.

However, if I might suggest a couple of things. Have the audio output from each instrument module in Kontakt go to its own AUX track in Pro Tools. Adjust the output volume from Kontakt so that the meter on the AUX track is just into yellow. Think of it this way. If you were recording live players, with all sorts of mics coming into the recording booth, you'd adjust the gain on the incoming mic signal to get a clean signal on the audio recording. Essentially, that's what you're doing here with Kontakt. Think of the mixer in Kontakt as your line in mixer for your instrument recordings. Get as a clean a signal as you can. That's how I do it with East-West or Omnisphere or any other VI.

Once you're satisfied with you levels, then you can commit to audio. Once in audio, if you need a bit more gain, you can use clip gain a bit...but be careful with that too. Add your fx (delay, reverb, eq whatever you're doing). You shouldn't need a lot of compression on orchestral type instruments. Less is more.

Watch the meter on your Master fader. Keep it around -6db to -8db.

An orchestral track like this isn't going to be at the radio ready volume levels you hear in pop or dance music. Its a different kind of mix altogether.

I personally don't have Kontakt, but from all I've ready, they have some really nice orchestral sounds to work with and there are any number of good sample libraries out there for it. Its a real art to get good orchestral sound from sample libraries. There's a lot tweaking, sometimes working with different sample articulations for the same instrument track and all that.

Also, don't be afraid to layer up you're sounds to fill them out and add some depth. Pay attention to EQ as well. There's a lot to it.

Also, I think Jack was right. You shouldn't need to work beyond 44.1k sample rate, 24bit. (Unless you're scoring for video, in which case use 48k sample rate). The higher sample rates won't do you much good unless you're working on some really high end stuff in post-audio or big production.

Another issue could be your studio monitors. How does your mix sound on different speakers?

Good luck

I never use Kontakt's mixer and output every instrument hosted in there to it's own aux or audio track in PT. That way I have real control over the mix in a more normal way than using the Kontakt mixer. IOW - treating it like it was a bunch of real instruments.

Now some of the stock stuff that comes with Kontakt or NI puts out may not be the best out there but one can make quite serviceable music with it. The real genius lies in the third party libraries available for that platform.

Keep in mind that compression and limiting can add volume. What some people don't realize is that adding eq can also raise levels. Good metering is a real helper here. And I mean not necessarily trusting PT's meters but some third party metering system. Blue Cat does some good stuff in that vein.

[Soeren]

Thank you guys for your answer, really nice

I've post a reply yesterday but it is still not shown so....I also use one instrument at a time in kontakt, however Ive never checked if sound were going too loud inside of it. I think I've tried to lower it down last days, and it still appeared. EQ can create a lot of saturation, but I only use it for decreasing frequencies, which also cause to have to re increase volume afterwards....so really its all about the tools I use...

I don't really know what I am supposed to check in the metering system. What should I look for*? Too high peaks*? I have one, I am going to use it, but I need to know what goal I'm going for. I'll check the volume peaks loudness

I'll make several tests and let you now. That problem occurs especially with strings, and some of my track that are more pop like do not sound that distored. So it may come from the instruments themself too.

Later

[Soeren]

Kontakt instrument level lowered, volume increased by an other pro maximizer, and meter measurement for peaks.

Sound is exactly the same, it's probably coming from the library itself. EWQL seems to sound better. I guess I'll have to keep up with that issue.