Buy Eleven rack w Pro Tools or Student version of Pro Tools 12 and rack separately?

[Barry Johns]

Originally Posted by Darryl Ramm

This has nothing to do with what he was talking about, which is unbundling the Pro Tools software. Which if anything violates the Pro Tools EULA. That is a license agreement (and maybe a contract depending on jurisdiction/interpretation). It has nothing to do with any other laws or the examples you gave of modifying hardware.

Give me a freaking break!

If that were even remotely accurate practically every member of this forum, has at some point done this!

Do you not see 11r sold here all the time? What about protocols licenses?

What about HD software and hardware sold on this site by users practically daily, or at least they try depending on price!

There is no dressing law against buying an 11R with the software and then parting it out.

If there is, police here I am, come on send arrest me!!!!!

[Darryl Ramm]

You are the only person who keeps mentioning "law". Do you understand what the difference between the law, a contract and a license agreement is?

here is the EULA http://www.avid.com/static/resources...te/LICENSE.pdf

The threat there is

"9.2. Transfer to third party.
If you are the person who initially licensed the software, you may be eligible to make a one -time permanent transfer of your license and the software to another end user, provided that you do not retain any copies of the software and you follow Avid’s license transfer procedures. For further information, please visit www.avid.com/avidlicensing."

That is one poorly written license that a lot of courts would likely have issues with. It incorporates external company policies in a unclear way. How does a consumer know what "Avid's license transfer procedures" are at any point in time? Are they fixed to when the person original purchased the product? etc.

But the license agreement applies if you accept the terms by using the software, it does not apply if you merely purchased the software. So yes I actually agree with you, that as currently written I read that as there is no prohibition from somebody selling their unregisterded and unused Pro Tools software that came in a hardware bundle.

And the Avid transfer policy is documented at http://www.avid.com/US/about-avid/le...nse-management

"Changing ownership of an Avid software product Avid may allow for the one time permanent transfer of software licenses to another end user or legal entity. Academic and evaluation licenses are prohibited from any transfer of ownership (refer to the Avid EULA for more information).
/snip/
Audio Products: Transfer of ownership requires that the two parties engaged in the transfer complete the Avid transfer of ownership form. Additional information can be found http://avid.force.com/pkb/articles/en_US/FAQ/en363631."

And that eventually gets you to the current 2015 transfer of Ownership Form that states "Please note that Pro Tools software products that have been upgraded to the newer 2015 support plans and newer Pro Tools products which include 2015 support plans are not currently available for transfer."

One reading of this is that Avid won't allow a transfer of 2015 support plan related licenses via ilok license transfer, but its also ambiguously readable as since its stating Avid's policy is that it's not transferable then the EULA prohibits the licensee transferring a license by any means, including a physical iLok transfer. But since as I understand it currently the Eleven Rack bundle includes Pro Tools, but *not* a 2015 support plan then I would read this as even if the license has been activated then the purchaser is able to transfer it either by iLok transfer or by physical iLok sale.... but you may need good luck getting pro Tools 12 to transfer via an iLok transfer or getting help from Avid on doing so. Have not registered the software, then knock yourself out and sell it to whoever you want... but that purchaser is then at the mercy of Avid doing the right thing. Say being willing to sell them ongoing support (or they lose the ability to upgrade), etc.

People purchasing those unbundled licenses hopefully are aware of what is going on, ideally purchase unactivated licenses, etc. And the real problem here may be Avid treats its customers with such little respect, including being so opaque about so much of it's licensing and support policies etc., that you are always taking a risk buying anything from Avid, white or grey market.

[Barry Johns]

none of this applies to the OP at this point! I offered to GIVE him a legitimate copy of PTMP, which IS ok under Avid's policy, he then can use that to upgrade to PT10/12, which is OK with Avid's policy, then if he were to sell his newly acquired PT10/12 then the policy below would apply.

In 2008 I purchased around 25 or so Mix cards, did the transfer of ownership, used them to upgrade to PTHD3's, then I parted out the Accel cards and fold all the HD1's. All of those cards where registered to the people I sold them to.

Towards the end of that run I told everyone here exactly how to do what I did and save thousands on PTHD Systems.

All in the open, not a single comment from Avid/Digidesign, why, because it was all on the up and up, as it is today.

Originally Posted by Darryl Ramm

You are the only person who keeps mentioning "law". Do you understand what the difference between the law, a contract and a license agreement is?

here is the EULA http://www.avid.com/static/resources...te/LICENSE.pdf

The threat there is

"9.2. Transfer to third party.
If you are the person who initially licensed the software, you may be eligible to make a one -time permanent transfer of your license and the software to another end user, provided that you do not retain any copies of the software and you follow Avid’s license transfer procedures. For further information, please visit www.avid.com/avidlicensing."

That is one poorly written license that a lot of courts would likely have issues with. It incorporates external company policies in a unclear way. How does a consumer know what "Avid's license transfer procedures" are at any point in time? Are they fixed to when the person original purchased the product? etc.

But the license agreement applies if you accept the terms by using the software, it does not apply if you merely purchased the software. So yes I actually agree with you, that as currently written I read that as there is no prohibition from somebody selling their unregisterded and unused Pro Tools software that came in a hardware bundle.

And the Avid transfer policy is documented at http://www.avid.com/US/about-avid/le...nse-management

"Changing ownership of an Avid software product Avid may allow for the one time permanent transfer of software licenses to another end user or legal entity. Academic and evaluation licenses are prohibited from any transfer of ownership (refer to the Avid EULA for more information).
/snip/
Audio Products: Transfer of ownership requires that the two parties engaged in the transfer complete the Avid transfer of ownership form. Additional information can be found http://avid.force.com/pkb/articles/en_US/FAQ/en363631."

And that eventually gets you to the current 2015 transfer of Ownership Form that states "Please note that Pro Tools software products that have been upgraded to the newer 2015 support plans and newer Pro Tools products which include 2015 support plans are not currently available for transfer."

One reading of this is that Avid won't allow a transfer of 2015 support plan related licenses via ilok license transfer, but its also ambiguously readable as since its stating Avid's policy is that it's not transferable then the EULA prohibits the licensee transferring a license by any means, including a physical iLok transfer. But since as I understand it currently the Eleven Rack bundle includes Pro Tools, but *not* a 2015 support plan then I would read this as even if the license has been activated then the purchaser is able to transfer it either by iLok transfer or by physical iLok sale.... but you may need good luck getting pro Tools 12 to transfer via an iLok transfer or getting help from Avid on doing so. Have not registered the software, then knock yourself out and sell it to whoever you want... but that purchaser is then at the mercy of Avid doing the right thing. Say being willing to sell them ongoing support (or they lose the ability to upgrade), etc.

People purchasing those unbundled licenses hopefully are aware of what is going on, ideally purchase unactivated licenses, etc. And the real problem here may be Avid treats its customers with such little respect, including being so opaque about so much of it's licensing and support policies etc., that you are always taking a risk buying anything from Avid, white or grey market.

[musicman691]

Originally Posted by Darryl Ramm

You are the only person who keeps mentioning "law". Do you understand what the difference between the law, a contract and a license agreement is?

here is the EULA http://www.avid.com/static/resources...te/LICENSE.pdf

The threat there is

"9.2. Transfer to third party.
If you are the person who initially licensed the software, you may be eligible to make a one -time permanent transfer of your license and the software to another end user, provided that you do not retain any copies of the software and you follow Avid’s license transfer procedures. For further information, please visit www.avid.com/avidlicensing."

That is one poorly written license that a lot of courts would likely have issues with. It incorporates external company policies in a unclear way. How does a consumer know what "Avid's license transfer procedures" are at any point in time? Are they fixed to when the person original purchased the product? etc.

But the license agreement applies if you accept the terms by using the software, it does not apply if you merely purchased the software. So yes I actually agree with you, that as currently written I read that as there is no prohibition from somebody selling their unregisterded and unused Pro Tools software that came in a hardware bundle.

And the Avid transfer policy is documented at http://www.avid.com/US/about-avid/le...nse-management

"Changing ownership of an Avid software product Avid may allow for the one time permanent transfer of software licenses to another end user or legal entity. Academic and evaluation licenses are prohibited from any transfer of ownership (refer to the Avid EULA for more information).
/snip/
Audio Products: Transfer of ownership requires that the two parties engaged in the transfer complete the Avid transfer of ownership form. Additional information can be found http://avid.force.com/pkb/articles/en_US/FAQ/en363631."

And that eventually gets you to the current 2015 transfer of Ownership Form that states "Please note that Pro Tools software products that have been upgraded to the newer 2015 support plans and newer Pro Tools products which include 2015 support plans are not currently available for transfer."

One reading of this is that Avid won't allow a transfer of 2015 support plan related licenses via ilok license transfer, but its also ambiguously readable as since its stating Avid's policy is that it's not transferable then the EULA prohibits the licensee transferring a license by any means, including a physical iLok transfer. But since as I understand it currently the Eleven Rack bundle includes Pro Tools, but *not* a 2015 support plan then I would read this as even if the license has been activated then the purchaser is able to transfer it either by iLok transfer or by physical iLok sale.... but you may need good luck getting pro Tools 12 to transfer via an iLok transfer or getting help from Avid on doing so. Have not registered the software, then knock yourself out and sell it to whoever you want... but that purchaser is then at the mercy of Avid doing the right thing. Say being willing to sell them ongoing support (or they lose the ability to upgrade), etc.

People purchasing those unbundled licenses hopefully are aware of what is going on, ideally purchase unactivated licenses, etc. And the real problem here may be Avid treats its customers with such little respect, including being so opaque about so much of it's licensing and support policies etc., that you are always taking a risk buying anything from Avid, white or grey market.

You're talking about the software once it is registered and up until that point it is not registered to anyone. When you buy a combo of the 11 Rack and PT up until the point you actually enter the info on the Avid site for registration you can do anything that you want with the combo, including splitting the package and selling the hardware separate from the software. The s/w and h/w in that package register separately; I know because that's what I had to do when I got my combo.

[Darryl Ramm]

Originally Posted by musicman691

You're talking about the software once it is registered and up until that point it is not registered to anyone. When you buy a combo of the 11 Rack and PT up until the point you actually enter the info on the Avid site for registration you can do anything that you want with the combo, including splitting the package and selling the hardware separate from the software. The s/w and h/w in that package register separately; I know because that's what I had to do when I got my combo.

I thought I made it clear and discussed both cases, where the license applied and when it did not, like when I said..

But the license agreement applies if you accept the terms by using the software, it does not apply if you merely purchased the software.

and

Have not registered the software, then knock yourself out and sell it to whoever you want...

[Barry Johns]

Originally Posted by Darryl Ramm

I thought I made it clear and discussed both cases, where the license applied and when it did not, like when I said..


and

Man, give up! I've made my point, let the readers of this thread make their own minds up taking into consider your pints as well as mine!

[Darryl Ramm]

Originally Posted by Barry Johns

Jack, no I'm not. The hd3's that I parted out were never registered to me, only the mix cards I used to upgrade. After I sold the HD1's the person buying them then registered the software for the first time in their name.

Uh, Jack was not even replying to you. Threads on DUC don't just revolve around you just because you post to them. Jack was replying to a post of mine. He was agreeing with the points you have been trying to make. As I actually have been as well. If you would slow down and actually read stuff it might result in a more cogent thread here and actually help other users more.

[Barry Johns]

Originally Posted by Darryl Ramm

Uh, Jack was not even replying to you. Threads on DUC don't just revolve around you just because you post to them. Jack was replying to a post of mine. He was agreeing with the points you have been trying to make. As I actually have been as well. If you would slow down and actually read stuff it might result in a more cogent thread here and actually help other users more.

Fair enough Darryl, I made a mistake...why are you taking this so personal. What in the world would make you think that I think the world revolves around me?

Lighten up.

It's hard sometimes to keep up reading on a phone...Jack, please forgive me for confusing things.

Darryl, you and I are not on the same page, I don't agree with most of your points, that being said I don't take it personal, frustrating at points, yes, but you are free to have your opinions.

I stand by my previous point, everyone, even if they care at this point, don't blame them if they don't, can take all the points both you and I have made, as well as the other points of others, and come to their own conclusions.

I was hoping for this to end on my last post, can we just agree to disagree on the points we are not in agreement on?

[Darryl Ramm]

Thanks Barry. And I do appreciate you were tying to correct an earlier over-broad misstatement I made (those license restrictions only apply if the software is uses/license activated), ... which I tried to correct in the later post.

And I hope folks who are after an Eleven Rack realize it is a great box, whether they buy it new/used and with or without Pro Tools.

[musicman691]

Originally Posted by Darryl Ramm

I thought I made it clear and discussed both cases, where the license applied and when it did not, like when I said..


and

Agreed on both counts.
I wish the forum software would allow the option of having embedded/nested quotes so when replies like this are made it would be a lot clearer what one is replying to.