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  #1  
Old 12-17-2005, 09:01 PM
s0nguy s0nguy is offline
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Default So.... Alls quiet on the PC front...

All,

We PC users seem to not be as vocal about the PCI --> PCIe shakedown.

What are your thoughts? Do you even care? Im leaning towards not caring because I can make a TON of music on the HD rig I already own.

-S0nguy
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  #2  
Old 12-17-2005, 10:49 PM
Brandonx1 Brandonx1 is offline
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Default Re: So.... Alls quiet on the PC front...

Hi s0nguy,
I'm waiting for the price of an HD rig to come down. Soon, most of the mac guys are going to be on and HD 3 PCI-E rigs and the PCI-x rigs are going to go cheap. Then as long as PC motherboards aren't HD PCI-E complient, pc users are going to get a great deal on rigs.
Peace,
Brandon
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  #3  
Old 12-18-2005, 01:10 AM
BIG D BIG D is offline
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Default Re: So.... Alls quiet on the PC front...

Hi,

No upset here. I recently purchased a HD3 and Massive pack pro which are all PCI and I am not bothered. I will probably buy the new Chasis to run the cards, but just want to make sure the issue with RTAS latencey is not a real one when using the chasis.

Glad we don't have to worry so much about the choices MAC make to effect us.

All the best,

Big D
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  #4  
Old 12-18-2005, 07:16 AM
MDog MDog is offline
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Default Re: So.... Alls quiet on the PC front...

I may be wrong, but I think the PCI-E version is identical in terms of DSP. That means just getting an expansion chassis like this http://www.globalspec.com/FeaturedPr...CIX_Expansion_ if you upgrade to a PCI-E only PC. AFAIK, and please correct me if I'm wrong, but there aren't any enhanced features.
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  #5  
Old 12-18-2005, 11:48 AM
nikki-k nikki-k is offline
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Default Re: So.... Alls quiet on the PC front...

Hi!

PCI-E seems to have no difference. AFAIK, these cards are immediately to soothe the problems Mac users are facing with Apple's decisions. Since the cards really only rely on the PCI slots for power, and the core for getting audio from disk IN, and then all the cards- depending on TDM mixer size/DSP allotment- RTAS send and return, 64-bit slots and such do not seem to afford much over 32-bit slots. Maybe a little umph for those with wicked packed, huge sessions, or maybe for those dabbling in 24/192. For Windows users, things are not as great in impact...we have plenty of valid choices for building blocks that do not include PCI-E. The only real negative side is if a Windows user chooses a rig with a combo of PCI and PCI-E.

Which brings up a question I was going to post in it's nown thread (and may still do so):
Digi: Can one mix PCI-E Accel and PCI Accel cards? In other words, if one bought a motherboard with 2 PCI-E slots and 3 PCI slots, could we then mix cards?

Expansion chassis:
This is an easy one. RTAS impact is yet to be seen. Aside from that tho- looks stellar! Yeah, $$$ is not thrilling...but the unit itself- if good/excellent construction- well worth it IMO. This sucker has it's own little motherboard, and frees up DSP on the cards...at the price of eating a little (little? lot? hmmm...how much exactly?) from the host cpu. Only caveat right now: no laptop solution for using it. That sucks... but hopefully will be remedied soon! Coupled with replacing the stock cooling with super-quiet cooling (should be possible, if standard fan sizes and such were used), this would be an excellent mobile solution IMO.

I think we are all quiet here because currently there are only a few issues affecting us. MIDI timing, Sound Toys getting some cheap thrill buggering XP users, and a few other smaller misc. bumps in the road. But for the most part, the OS is pretty stable and tick free (especially with knowledgeable hands at the wheel), PT7 is pretty solid overall, and we have a few systems we can build ourselves and live relatively trouble-free and ultra-stable with

Digi has had some cool acquisitions (M-Audio, Wizoo) via Avid, and I really think this will show it's benefit (more than it has) over the next year. Hopefully NAMM will shed some light...cause Wizoo had value for acquiring...and if it means what I think (and hope!!!)...well...

Calm before the storm? I hope not...would rather have a nice calm before a sweet reward!
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  #6  
Old 12-18-2005, 03:19 PM
len branville len branville is offline
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Default Re: So.... Alls quiet on the PC front...

I agree with the above statements and this is "more" of an issue with Apple in a constant state of flux (ahhhh the only constant is change -who said that? ). Nothing is really changing except for slot compatibility.

I am interested in knowing the possible ramifications (if any) of a mixed slot/card situation as Nikki mentioned though.

len
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  #7  
Old 12-18-2005, 07:12 PM
filmixer filmixer is offline
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Default Re: So.... Alls quiet on the PC front...

>We PC users seem to not be as vocal about the PCI --> PCIe shakedown. <

That's just because Mac users whine about everything.
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  #8  
Old 12-20-2005, 07:53 AM
zboy2854 zboy2854 is offline
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Default Re: So.... Alls quiet on the PC front...

I posted this similarly in the Mac forum, but basically, with double dual core PC's rivalling the plugin power of HD Accel7 or 8 systems, there's no more real need for Accel cards, just a Core card to handle the ADC, mix engine, latency and I/O and TDM only plugs, and let the CPU's handle all the rest of the plugins. If you need more hardware I/O, just pick up a used Process card on ebay for $600 or so.

In this scenario, you only need one regular PCI or PCI-X slot for a regular Core card, and the hella expensive PCI-e Digi cards can bugger off. With the motherboard choices we have, as opposed to Mac users being locked into what Apple gives them, I'd say we PC users are definitely getting less of the future upgrade shaft.
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  #9  
Old 12-20-2005, 01:06 PM
nikki-k nikki-k is offline
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Default Re: So.... Alls quiet on the PC front...

Quote:
I posted this similarly in the Mac forum, but basically, with double dual core PC's rivalling the plugin power of HD Accel7 or 8 systems, there's no more real need for Accel cards, just a Core card to handle the ADC, mix engine, latency and I/O and TDM only plugs, and let the CPU's handle all the rest of the plugins. If you need more hardware I/O, just pick up a used Process card on ebay for $600 or so.

In this scenario, you only need one regular PCI or PCI-X slot for a regular Core card, and the hella expensive PCI-e Digi cards can bugger off. With the motherboard choices we have, as opposed to Mac users being locked into what Apple gives them, I'd say we PC users are definitely getting less of the future upgrade shaft.
While this may seem a boon, and seem to be a great scenario, I personally do not see it as such. I doubt I will see a host system that could replace my Accel system as being equal. The most very basic part of the TDM system defies replacement by a host system: The TDM Mixer.

Sure, plugin power can be equalled, perhaps rivalled at some point. But, the TRUE power of TDM lies in the basic building block. I really do not see how this could be done with host dsp. Maybe I am ignorant of something?

With the TDM mixer, we have an incredible piece of "virtual hardware" that can be reconfigured, assembled as we like, expanded, contracted at will...being able to run plugins without relying on host DSP/CPU is a secondary, maybe even tertiary, benefit. Realizing this seems to be a road block for some, while others (like myself) realized it before even purchasing, and revel in it, despite naysayers who will tout fantastic DSP accomplishments (plugin and track count-wise) with host only solutions. Even a host system with UAD cards or Powercore cards cannot touch TDM, simply because it is a different beast completely. PARIS is very close, and given a longer lifespan, might have really given TDM a serious run. Pyramix is simmilar as well.

Additionally, there some TDM only plugs. Sure, Powercore has accomplished some nice moves, mostly with an algo-giant like TC fuelling from a past rep developed from their stellar units. But, without something akin to the TDM Mixer, these plugins are not enough to gain more than a cursory glance. My personal choices would be PT HD, then Nyquist fuelled RADAR, and for budget solution- PARIS. Id worry about the hardware with the PARIS rig tho...failure could equal a disasterous requirement to move to another plat. Ugh.

Another thing nice about a nice HD system with a few Accel cards: Getting to sit nearly idle while technology advances. SInce the extra horsepower is not so necessary, I have sat with a stable system for over 3 years, opting for a new CPU once, and adding more RAM for using larger instruments in Kontakt and such. Had I been host only, I would have seriously considered upgrades at least once each yeat...maybe that is just me tho?

I say all that, and I may come off as being quite a snob...and maybe I am
And maybe I am simply old-fashioned, someone who learned on analogue, but as I learned, digital was on the rise- very, very slowly at first. But then one day, it was like overnight- bang! We could record 4 tracks of audio! A four track in a computer! And then a sampler on a card inside! WIld stuff...

For those relgated to (or, happy with) a host system tho- truly great times, better yet to come!
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Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nikki-k View Post
Sometimes ya just gotta put your tongue on the 9V battery just to see what all the fuss is about.
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  #10  
Old 12-20-2005, 02:23 PM
zboy2854 zboy2854 is offline
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Default Re: So.... Alls quiet on the PC front...

As I said in my post, I wasn't advocating an all native system. I'm still talking about a TDM system that includes an HD Core card, which handles all the issues you mentioned. I'm talking about Accel cards becoming obsolete and being replaced by CPU power that handles the majority of plugin processing, while the Core card takes care of the TDM mixer, latency, ADC, etc..

Of course, if something is working for you now, there's no need to rush out and change things, hell, there are some folks still chugging along fine on legacy Mix systems. What I'm referring to is simply that the winds of change are blowing pretty clearly, and it seems like Digi is responding the wrong way to them.

The pricing structure they've got on the PCIe cards is a clear example of this, which yet again is a big middle finger to Mac Accel users, just as the release of Accel was to Process card users after they just got those. Given the strides in native power and other great platforms out there that can now compete, Digi cannot afford to keep pissing off large parts of their user base time and time again.

My view is definitely long-range, and it is directed toward Digi's business model and bottom line. We all know that no one stays king of the mountain forever. It used to be SSL and Neve, then Alesis briefly with the ADAT revolution, and then Digi, and one day someone else. And sure, there are still throwback guys who stick with the "older" technology, and one day soon guys who are still using HD Accel PCI systems will be considered throwback as well. But time and technology marches forward, and the names of the main players have and will change. Given the rapid pace of advancement taking place in technology in the new millenium, if Digi doesn't take care to keep up and continue to be forward looking, they will be overthrown.

And I say all this as someone who likes using PT. I think it's a great product, having tried other "all native" solutions and still coming back to HD. But I want to see Digi adjust their business model more acutely to stay on the forefront. Otherwise they'll end up like Kodak or IBM, who were too slow to recognize the paradigm shifts occuring right beneath them to respond and thrive, and end up a shell of what they once were.
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