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  #1  
Old 08-28-2015, 07:51 PM
jclark5093 jclark5093 is offline
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Default How to record a FULL RANGE guitar sound?

So I tracked a band recently that is comprised of 2 people. A drummer, and a guitarist/singer. He plays a strat through a fender blues jr playing hendrix-y bluesy stuff mixed with some prince funk. He fills the room with the full range of the guitar, and doesn't need a bass. It works in a room. I attended a couple rehearsals to understand their sound.


In the recordings, the guitars don't sound so full. They take up the frequency space that electric guitars "should" take in a full band (250-8k or so). I want to get the mix to include the frequencies down to 80Hz that I heard in the room when tracking.

I do have a DI track so I can reamp, use parallel tracks for amp sims, etc etc. So all is not lost.

But WHAT could even be done, what technique, to get the depth of a full human ear experience but in an ITB mixing situation? He used an EQ pedal to boost the lows all the way down to 80 curved down from the left to flat on the right. That's how he gets his sound to begin with. I've never been put in the position to capture something like that before, so I close mic'ed the cab with a ribbon and an off axis 58 (with the grill removed). They sound GREAT but they don't sound like what I hear in the room.

Any advice (and scolding) are welcome and appreciated!!
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  #2  
Old 08-28-2015, 09:09 PM
Craig F Craig F is offline
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Default Re: How to record a FULL RANGE guitar sound?

Room mic(s)
maybe a LCD close to the cab
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  #3  
Old 08-28-2015, 09:19 PM
jclark5093 jclark5093 is offline
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Default Re: How to record a FULL RANGE guitar sound?

So if I put the DI through a sim and set the microphone really far out (like in DPs G Room) it will sound big and bassy and huge lows?

Of course there are psychoacoustic things happening in the live room while tracking, but whatever my brain thinks my ears heard, that's what I want in the mix ;-)
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Old 08-28-2015, 10:33 PM
Darryl Ramm Darryl Ramm is offline
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Default Re: How to record a FULL RANGE guitar sound?

I suspect Craig meant track the original live performance with a room mic.

You can try reamping/overlaying multiple times, esp. try different cab sims/mic positions, etc.

There is a lot going on with a live amp in a room....
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  #5  
Old 08-29-2015, 12:49 AM
jclark5093 jclark5093 is offline
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Default Re: How to record a FULL RANGE guitar sound?

I think a reference mic in the room wouldn't pick up what my brain tells me my ears are hearing, if that makes sense.

I think because of the volume, it sounds bass heavy and booming, because I can feel it in my chest, in the floor (even though the amp was on a bench for recording) etc. Pretty sure my microphones recorded the sound that was actually coming out of the speaker. But I had a different impression in the room, and I don't know the techniques to recreate that feeling of being next to an amp that's moving that much air.
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  #6  
Old 08-29-2015, 01:17 AM
elicious elicious is offline
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Default Re: How to record a FULL RANGE guitar sound?

Well first, assuming that there's no hi pass filters anywhere in your chain,
and assuming you have the monitoring/room combo to hear/feel the bottom octave…
and assuming your mic pre has suitable input impedance. (impedance mismatches will degrade the sound of a ribbon mic...)

...it doesn't ring true that your low end only extends to 250,
especially since, using ribbons up close, you should have two more octaves to play with..

audition the mics separately,
as the combo may be phase cancelling.

(with normal mic-ing, in a pop mix or dense rock track, usually there's too much of the lo's,
it's normal to have to HPF the guitar tones above 125 for 150 so they don't mud up the mix.)

In an analog situation the tape would saturate and soften the highs.

ITB, I suspect the lo's you need might be there.
Just being masked by too many highs.

so the first thing I would do is pull out a high cut filter, 6 db/octave,
and start to pull it down.

after gently cutting the hi's, if there still isn't enough girth,
then re amp, using his setup and pay close (pun intended) attention to the mic-ing to maximize proximity effect.

as craig mentioned, try a condenser, as it will have deeper lows,
or a 421/441 instead of the 57/58.

IIRC, that amp is open backed, so mic it from the rear and flip the phase.

also, place the amp on the floor (hopefully wood, and on a raised foundation),
close to a wall, or to max the horn effect, in the corner.

if you still felt the need to enhance,
the first tool I would probably pull up is the waves renbass,
which without going into all the details of how it works,
would be a good way to add some hair to the bottom octave, while keeping his original tone intact.

(And forget about the amp sims, they won't sound true to your guitar player.)

In the future, take Craig's advice, and always use room mics,
as this will add depth and dimension, and warm up the tone…
e
for the record
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  #7  
Old 08-29-2015, 05:36 AM
musicman691 musicman691 is offline
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Default Re: How to record a FULL RANGE guitar sound?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jclark5093 View Post
I think a reference mic in the room wouldn't pick up what my brain tells me my ears are hearing, if that makes sense.

I think because of the volume, it sounds bass heavy and booming, because I can feel it in my chest, in the floor (even though the amp was on a bench for recording) etc. Pretty sure my microphones recorded the sound that was actually coming out of the speaker. But I had a different impression in the room, and I don't know the techniques to recreate that feeling of being next to an amp that's moving that much air.
You're going to have to discern what exactly you were hearing - the guitar or drum set (specifically the kick drum) making that heavy booming sound. Also you were probably hearing the different room modes/resonances and a mic on a guitar cab might not pick that up, depending on the mic. Was the guitar player using a 7 string guitar by any chance? That can give a real low sound. As mentioned before mic type and placement at the guitar cab will make a whale of a difference. Something to try the next time you record this duo is to try a ribbon mic on the guitar cab.
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  #8  
Old 08-29-2015, 10:14 AM
jclark5093 jclark5093 is offline
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Default Re: How to record a FULL RANGE guitar sound?

Elicious: no HPF. I don't have a proper room set up, just moved 2 weeks ago but can't postpone, so I'm working in an untreated room, but it's filled with book cases and books and boxes, so sort of diffused ;-)

I was using the built in preamps on my Focusrite Saffire Pro 40, I didn't check the impedance, but it sound like a ribbon to my ears, nothing odd. Maybe what you're referring to is more subtle than I was thinking to look?

And you're right, it's not cut at 250 but that's where the signal is strong, in the mids.

Surprisingly, I was unable to get proximity effect from the 58 even with the grill removed to get the capsule closer. The 58 track I have is the crunchy shrill one (compared to the ribbon).

I will try low pass filters (is there a linear phase EQ in PT or do I need to bounce over to Logic for a minute to test this?) and if I need to I can record those tracks to tape (slate VTM doesn't do much for me, it's too subtle and clean for me: his machines and tape are both too good, it's pristine and has massive headroom).

And the Amp Sims I have are the ElevenRack and BIAS. If they're mixed in with the original amp, I'm not sure he'd know, the EQ pedal was overdriving his preamp, and he was using a grindy distortion pedal too.

MusicMan: The drummer was tracked on different days. No kick drum.

So this was only a 6 string fender strat middle pickup (on a tele, but in middle position and an actual strat pickup). It had heavy gauge strings, but was tuned to E.

This was done in a living room (I'm mobile). Where I was sitting on the sofa, the amp was 6 feet in front of me, 2 feet to the right, and pointed 90° to my left, so I was not in line, but I did stick my bare ears near the grill a few times to hear what was really there, and it sounded big there too. The sofa I was on was not against a wall, the room is set up oddly, but suffice it to say I don't think I was sitting in any standing waves, it was literally shaking the house. THATS the effect I want to get on the album, but without a bass guitar. Maybe this is actually something that gets "fixed in mastering"?

I did use a ribbon. I have a ribbon, a 58 (grill removed), and DI tracks. At one point I put the ribbon inside the back of the cabinet to try to capture just the low boom, and it kind of did, but it doesn't translate in the mix.

Of course it is possible that because his amp has a 12" speaker and my monitors are smaller, maybe that's why I'm not hearing how big it is? Then again, most people will have Apple EarPods anyway, and I want those people to hear it fully, so I feel like I'm suddenly out of my depth professionally! I've never had this kind of problem where I can't make a recording sound like the music!!!!!!
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Old 08-29-2015, 10:32 AM
Darryl Ramm Darryl Ramm is offline
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Default Re: How to record a FULL RANGE guitar sound?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jclark5093 View Post
Of course it is possible that because his amp has a 12" speaker and my monitors are smaller, maybe that's why I'm not hearing how big it is? Then again, most people will have Apple EarPods anyway, and I want those people to hear it fully, so I feel like I'm suddenly out of my depth professionally! I've never had this kind of problem where I can't make a recording sound like the music!!!!!!
Those folks with Apple EarPods may have better bass response than your monitors (well if they wear them properly), I'm not sure why you would assume they do not. If you worry about what they will hear, then mix/test using them.

You do not necessarily need 12" speakers to reproduce the frequency range of the guitar amp that you were hearing. But one of the first things you will need to do is to be able to reproduce things at a decent SPL since that affects so much of the perception. And if you were sitting close to a live drum set well you are getting lots of high-SPL signal (even without a low-frequency kick drum)... and for that you will need a decent monitor setup. What monitors/amps/speakers are you tryign to use here? I suspect that has a lot to do with what is going on...

I'm stlll lost here a bit... you tracked the guitar player by himself with no drum hearable to you, and you are comparing that live sound to the recorded guitar only?

"literally shaking the house"... well that requires SPL.. again what are your monitors/subwoofer etc.?
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  #10  
Old 08-29-2015, 10:41 AM
jclark5093 jclark5093 is offline
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Default Re: How to record a FULL RANGE guitar sound?

Of course I reference my mixes on different speakers as I go, but I haven't gotten that far, because it seems like the microphones didn't pick up what I heard, because I think what I heard was not real. THATS the issue. I think it was the psychoacoustic things that happen at 110dB or however loud the amp was that day. There were no drums in the room that day.

When I listen back at 83dB I don't hear it. My setup is quite humble, for monitors I'm using M-Audio BX5a deluxe. They're not great. That said, I know them, because I've been using them for (too many) years. Once I get my new place set up, I'll be looking at some Tannoy Reveals or something similarly priced. For now, though...
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