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Old 02-10-2009, 02:40 AM
KingFish KingFish is offline
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Default Digi-Why was tiger better then Leo using all cores?

We've been talking about upgrading the HD2 PCIx system, in the DP G5 to Leopard / PT 8 for it's "Last major upgrade" where it'll live (Perhaps for it's last year)

Tiger & 7.4 is using both Processors, and there's no errors, or problems.

Digi's official position, on PT8 in Leo, is that one processor needs to be released from proTools, for Non Realtime Optimized processes to be able to run, outside of pro-tools.

On a machine, like a PowerMac G5 (Our only options for the PCIx systems), that's a HUGE hit, in being able to load many RTAS plugins, or even 1 VI

Wondering if the fact that it's Not a problem in Tiger / 7.4 - is Digi thinking about, or working on being able to use "All Available Cores" in 8 / Leo or is this something not really planned for development at this point? "Settled" as the new way, to move forward?

Wondering if those of us who still have a Mac G5 / PT HD PCIx system, is this Just a reality... to move forward, into Leo, and PT8, we loose a processor, and plans remain to stay that way?

This isn't even a "Shame" anything thread... Really.. I don't expect our systems to last in compatibility forever... I just want to make an "Informed decision" on weather to Upgrade this system to 8 / Leo or not. And I can't find any posts, in here, from Digi, one way or another, stating "This is the way we're moving forward" - OR - "We're working on being able to use Both processors, on a future cs Update"

I'm just curious.
Thanks for your time
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Old 02-10-2009, 03:50 AM
Ru_C Ru_C is offline
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Default Re: Digi-Why was tiger better then Leo using all cores?

Yes, i'm in the same position. Would like to know please Digi.

thanks
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  #3  
Old 02-10-2009, 04:24 AM
woodsdenis woodsdenis is offline
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Default Re: Digi-Why was tiger better then Leo using all cores?

I am in the same position as you guys. AFAIK Digi's position is that properly
coded RTAS plugs like the AIR VI's don't suffer from this problem. This neatly throws the ball back to the software developer's who all claim that they are working on it.

Realistically if you take a company like Spectrasonics who develop very popular plugs for all platforms and systems, Leopard/PT8/RTAS isn't/can't be their biggest revenue stream, so coming up with a fix isn't high on their list. In their case they use a wrapper for PT8. Go figure !!!!. This is not a rant against Spectrasonics per se, you could say the same in many ways about Native Instruments. EastWest/Play and many,many others.

The bottom line is that PT hasn't been used primarily for Music composition.
PT8 is the release that Digi hopes will change this. The irony is that for us G5 users we have the midi side vastly improved but most of the software instruments I own are unusable. Try using Omnisphere on one core and see how far you get.

Denis
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  #4  
Old 02-10-2009, 11:13 AM
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DigiTechSupt DigiTechSupt is offline
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Default Re: Digi-Why was tiger better then Leo using all cores?

Quote:
Digi's official position, on PT8 in Leo, is that one processor needs to be released from proTools, for Non Realtime Optimized processes to be able to run, outside of pro-tools.
This didn't just occur in Leopard - it was in Tiger as well, it's just more prevalent in Leopard due to changes in the OS and a few that may be related to optimizations of RTAS (by optimizations I mean changes that were made to improve performance, but that may require the plug-in manufacturer to update their code to take advantage of those changes).

I don't like to be a downer, but a G5 is really the low end of compatibility - it'll 'work' but if you're trying to run a lot of VI's, you're better off getting an Intel Mac.

Going forward plug-in manufacturers may choose to update their plug-ins, which would alleviate the 'problem' with multi-processor usage, but even so, many of those plug-ins are very CPU intensive and probably wouldn't run that well on a G5 anyways. I have a G5 and most modern plug-ins, even in Logic, really push what the processor can do - try using more than 1 instance of Massive in Logic sometime - you get the same kind of drop-outs and other issues. It's not just Pro Tools choking on CPU intensive plug-ins.

Personally I think G5's have seen their day - given that the last model was discontinued over 2.5 years ago, and the pace at which technology advances, it's rather left them in the dust. My Macbook Pro C2D 2.2 outpaces my G5 Dual 2.7 handily.

Going from PCI to PCIe is probably the biggest issue - the upgrade pricing is no small change, that's for sure. The computer upgrade is a little more bearable - you can get about $850 for a G5 Dual 2.5 and a 2x Dual Core 2.0 Mac Pro can be found for about $1500, so the investment may be worth it.
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  #5  
Old 02-10-2009, 11:26 AM
Mark Dann Mark Dann is offline
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Default Re: Digi-Why was tiger better then Leo using all cores?

I spoke with one developer yesterday (thru email), and it was not encouraging. He said in order for his VIs to work "properly" under PT8, they would need a very large amount of re-coding. And his desire is to keep consistent coding on his stuff across all the platforms he supports (AU, VTS, etc.), so it just ain't gonna happen.

Perhaps it is Digi who should be changing some code? Sort of meet the RATS developers half-way?
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  #6  
Old 02-10-2009, 01:32 PM
KingFish KingFish is offline
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Default Re: Digi-Why was tiger better then Leo using all cores?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DigiTechSupt View Post

I don't like to be a downer, but a G5 is really the low end of compatibility - it'll 'work' but if you're trying to run a lot of VI's, you're better off getting an Intel Mac.
Posting this, definitely wasn't a complaining tone, about "Drop for support of G5's - That machine sure doesn't owe me, the $3500.00 investment certainly has paid itself off 10 fold. The post is more - "How to get the most out of the HD2 PCIx system that is the lions share of the investment.

I've got an 8 Core Harpertown MacPro w/ 16gb of Ram and an HD2 Accel PCIe at HOME as my personal system, and our Control room at the studio, sadly... is HD2 PCIx
Quote:
Personally I think G5's have seen their day -
I completely Agree, but by saying this, the real "Pill to swallow" is, "HD Accel PCIx Have Seen their day" it's the "Real issue" we're all afraid to say out loud... really... to move forward, it's time to look for a Chassis, or a Hardware exchange.

Quote:
Going from PCI to PCIe is probably the biggest issue - the upgrade pricing is no small change, that's for sure. The computer upgrade is a little more bearable - you can get about $850 for a G5 Dual 2.5 and a 2x Dual Core 2.0 Mac Pro can be found for about $1500, so the investment may be worth it.
In the end, this post originated with the tone, and "Realization", that this system, is in it's "Last year" of production. Not the "Waving finger, Digi what are you going to do for me" tone that often occurs.

The control room is a "recording off the floor" environment, and Mixing. Not alot of VI's needed, but the new Track Comping features would be nice, along with DSP Caching, and some of the other new features in 8.

I just can't decide weather to "Remain on 7.4" - if it ain't broke, don't fix it.... or make PT 8 / Leo it's "Last transition.

This machine started on Panther / PT 6.4 - and made the leap (Pardon the pun) to Tiger pretty effortlessly. There's 4GB of ram in it, and it's running flawlessly w/ 7.4

Perhaps I'll make an image of the system, upgrade to Leo / 7.4.2 and see if it takes a serious "Hit" in performance - if all is well... we'll buy the upgrade to 8.0

Thanks for Chiming in Digi... I know (From some of the other responses in this thread) that there are alot of us, with this decision on our mind, and it's nice to "Talk it out with Digidesign"

We know, inevitably, MacPro, and PCIe upgrade is the only way to "Move forward" - this thread is more to determine weather we can continue to "Exist" adopting the new Pro-Tools.
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  #7  
Old 02-10-2009, 04:08 PM
woodsdenis woodsdenis is offline
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Default Re: Digi-Why was tiger better then Leo using all cores?

Quote:
Originally Posted by KingFish View Post
This machine started on Panther / PT 6.4 - and made the leap (Pardon the pun) to Tiger pretty effortlessly. There's 4GB of ram in it, and it's running flawlessly w/ 7.4

Perhaps I'll make an image of the system, upgrade to Leo / 7.4.2 and see if it takes a serious "Hit" in performance - if all is well... we'll buy the upgrade to 8.0

Thanks for Chiming in Digi... I know (From some of the other responses in this thread) that there are alot of us, with this decision on our mind, and it's nice to "Talk it out with Digidesign"

We know, inevitably, MacPro, and PCIe upgrade is the only way to "Move forward" - this thread is more to determine weather we can continue to "Exist" adopting the new Pro-Tools.
I am certainly not complaining . My G5 has done extremely well in the scheme of things. I am surprised though by the performance hit between 7.4/Tiger and 8/Leopard. For me its not worth going with PT8 fully at this time or probably at any time with this machine. I have 8/Leopard on a separate partition and use it if I have to.
My 7.4 rig is rock solid with 8 cs updates under its belt and performs
exceptionally well. Can I justify the cost of upgrading cards and computer
just to use PT8 . No. It doesn't offer that much of a quantum leap at this time to commit to it 100%. What I might consider in the interim is to
get a really hi-spec Imac to run my VI's.
I also don't see any of the pro studios here switching to PT8. Their view is that there is such a huge user base for the original interface it wouldn't be viable to upgrade. This of course in time will change as the new interface becomes the norm.
I have kinda accepted that I will upgrade hardware when PT runs properly on the new gen of macs/snow-leopard . When this happens we will be on PT9 which I hope whatever TDM2 turns out to be.
To conclude I wouldn't recommend anyone on a G5 Dual machine who uses
VI's a lot in their workflow to upgrade fully.It really is a PITA. Stick PT8
on a boot drive / partition and use it like that. To be fair these problems are not all Digi's fault or the VI software companies either or Apples. There is a combination of things happening here with new operating systems and hardware/software.

Denis
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  #8  
Old 02-10-2009, 05:15 PM
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DigiTechSupt DigiTechSupt is offline
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Default Re: Digi-Why was tiger better then Leo using all cores?

Quote:
I completely Agree, but by saying this, the real "Pill to swallow" is, "HD Accel PCIx Have Seen their day" it's the "Real issue" we're all afraid to say out loud... really... to move forward, it's time to look for a Chassis, or a Hardware exchange.
I wouldn't necessarily say that - there are many, many studios/people out there that use a minimal (if any) VI's and a system like this would be more than adequate. It's the VI user that really needs to be on a more modern machine.

And, believe me, I very much appreciate the even-handedness of your reply. Many people freak out when I try to get too 'real world' with them. Sometimes there are harsh realities that need to be faced - but you know that.

Quote:
To be fair these problems are not all Digi's fault or the VI software companies either or Apples. There is a combination of things happening here with new operating systems and hardware/software.
Agreed. And we're doing as much as we can to alleviate these issues as quickly as possible - I use VI's regularly and it's one of my 'personal missions' here (along with Scott Church) to get them working at a level that everyone agrees is viable. We've made a lot of changes, Leopard made a lot of changes and it's going to take plug-in manufacturers (who usually have the least overall resources) some time to make their changes. We still have some work to do in Pro Tools, but in the long run I'm more than confident that we will get to a point where performance will be a non-issue - it'll just plain work.
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Old 02-10-2009, 06:29 PM
propower propower is offline
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Default Re: Digi-Why was tiger better then Leo using all cores?

Well said Woodsdenis

I personally love PT8 and am determined to make it work. Already I can do a bit of VI work and just need to bounce them to audio (think BFD2) to keep the system happy.

Previously I used a PT24 system and skipped the entire mix generation and jumped straight to HD. Painful at times but well worth the wait for me. Ever since the Mac Pros came out and the PCIx/e thing happened I have been wanting to upgrade. I was certain new HD cards couldn't be that far off. With the even newer MAc Pros due very soon the upgrade desire is strong (just imagine going from a dual G5 to a 16 core!). I wish we had some insight as to when the next gen of HD will come. If its years away (as some threads indicate) then Hardware exchange looks more attractive, if sooner than the Magma interim has more grab......

-Lee
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Old 02-10-2009, 06:55 PM
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Default Re: Digi-Why was tiger better then Leo using all cores?

it would have been nice to know my G5 was gonna not be up to snuff before i invested in PT8

did i miss something somewhere or was i just ol' mr quickdraw mcgraw with my mastercard?
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