HDX and HD 44.1 and 48k in and out latency?

[TNM]

Originally Posted by propower

FWIW - I have given up on tracking through DAW plugins at this time (ProTools too). I set the buffer out at 256 or 512 (96kHz) and track with the Antelope built in FX and mixer. Latency is <0.5ms for live instruments and Vocals and sounds amazing. I usually only track a few things at a time so this is workable - for bands and large tracking - HDX would "sadly" be my choice (I sold my HDX system 6 months ago). For those adept at the UA system it is another worthy option.

For folks who are not so picky about RTL and can live with 5ms latency - HDN (or logic or S1 etc) and a good TB interface will do quite nicely.

This is the setup that made sense to me.. the antelope.. but they are lacking saturation effects and modulation and delays. Really they have just one verb, and eq's and comps and some basic amps. I have all the marshall stuff on uad which is awesome IMO.

I know the interface itself has better sound than apollo for sure, not disputing that. I am very good with the UA, i have used it exclusively for over a year now, but there is absolutely no way to ever use more than 32 ins with pro tools. I have urged them to come out with a clever compromise.. being able to assign a second console channel to the same input, so all you have to do is mute the first bank after the pass of 32, and then do a second pass.. it would still be very quick workflow.. we will see what happens.

In console itself though, it would still have it's own channel and effects..good idea i feel.

I could never live with 5ms latency.. 2.5 RTL is the absolute max for me. Simple as that :)

Now as far as i understand, with antelope FGP,. even though in pro tools HD scenario you have them plugged in via Digilink, say to the hd native thunderbolt, the actual monitoring is done through antelope mixer right? so very very low. I think even lower than apollo.

So it's an option, some day, if i ever go HD and can justify the 10 grand on a goliath HD, so i can have 64 analog ins with a single interface. That would be the way to go.. actually it's closer to 11 grand here plus the 7 for had native plus the 300 for digilink license.

As far as playing VI's, i assume that would still be whatever buffer the HD native is at plus antelope output converter latency.

Right now i get to track through the 224 reverb which to me is worth compromises, as well as the oxide tape :) I like UA..

I'll put it this way.. If Avid ever took away the ridiculous input limit for non HD hardware, i would never have even started these topics or given it a second thought. I would have bought the HD software and used 64 ins via the apollo.. i'd do it with 2 apollo 8's plus one adat 8 each, and 2x apollo 16's. That is my dream system, and i will take a 10 k loan out and DO that if avid ever remove the arbitrary limit.

Of course, if i wasn't so obsessed with using pro tools, and would just use studio one instead, there'd be no issue. Logic and Cubase are no longer options for me as they simply can not play automation in time, which is why i switched to pro tools to begin with.

Cheers!

[TNM]

Originally Posted by arche3

you can put tracks into input and hear realtime. in record and stop it monitors input. in play record mode monitors audio on track until punch in then it monitors input obviously.

just get a hdx system with hdio boxes for 64 inputs and outputs for interfacing to analog console. and or outboard. every other solution is just too much effort. save the headache and get on with it.

too late but thank you for everyone's help but the topic is now officially settled:)
I purchased the analog mixer.

This is now my setup:

Apollo 8 black thunderbolt, focusrite octo pro MK2 adat, 16 analog ins.

Apollo twin duo at end of thunderbolt chain, focusrite scarlett octopre adat, 10 analog ins. 26 total.

I have reserved input 1&2 of apollo for vocals and a guitar.

So this leaves 24 inputs.

I just can't give tracking to UAD up.. i print the tape stuff wet as well as unison pres and some dynamics. Amazing.

I looked at every alternative, digigrid etc.. the thing about apollo is that everything is truly in real time without me needing to engage record in pro tools or even record the tracks at all much of the time. I only do it when i need automation. And when UA finally allow midi control over console, i'll be able to avoid recording audio at all (except from the analog mixer).

Since the mixer is analog without recall i'll track it to audio. I considered a digital mixer, but they have their own latency, so it would be 2ms for digital mixer going into apollo then 2ms is 4ms.. again too much for me and my singer/guitarist.

So the mixer has 4 sub groups and main, so i have 6 inputs going into the apollo from it.. It's a 32 channel mixer, so if i happen to use all channels which is doubtful on every mix, i'd still be able to do it in 5 record passes. Average song is 4 min, so 20 mins to track the whole thing. I decided that saving 17 grand and spending 1500 instead was worth it.

Just hd native is 7.5 grand here and then the goliath HD is 10.. so that's 17 grand after some haggling on those already discounted prices. Just to get my 64 ins.
HDX1 with a 16x16 is 15 GRAND here.. And then i'd need another interface.. 2 thousand, and to get 64 inputs, i'd actually need two interfaces that do 32 ins each! too much money for higher latency than my apollo for sake of 64 ins.

Yamaha MGP32X.. It has fantastic effects including a buss compressor, and 16 individual channel comps as well as top shelf verb and other stuff. Awesome product. 2 separate dedicated and GOOD dsp effects as well as digital graphic EQ and multi band comp on master, all controllable through iphone app.

Monitoring the analog mixer through the apollo is just as realtime as plugging into the apollo directly. Balanced outs of the mix to balances ins of apollo, no noise issue to speak of.

So, 32 ins in mixer.. 6 outs of mixer into 6 of the apollo. 26 apollo total - 6 leaves me with 20 apollo ins.
-2 for vocal/guitar leaves me with 18.
32 + 18 = 50 inputs, i am pretty happy with that for the next few years at least I am sure. I don't plan expanding my outboard much further.

I also get a few cool things by having an analog mixer - i can use some of my hardware comps as it has inserts per channel, and my old lexicon verb through send/return :)

I have all this hardware from my studio days 17 years ago and kept it all thankfully.

I put all my hi def balanced stuff directly into apollo and enjoy individual channel processing. The rest is going into the mixer.

Low latency all round, no cpu issues to speak of even on a 6yo imac, for a bit of a workaround. I am pretty pleased i ended up saving the cash for now. If things change, i'll update this then!

Cheers!

[propower]

First off - its great you have a solution that works for you!!!

Curious
- Are you tracking Bands and have >32 Live inputs to record?

[TNM]

Originally Posted by propower

First off - its great you have a solution that works for you!!!

Curious
- Are you tracking Bands and have >32 Live inputs to record?

No, people generally don't understand my way of working..

I need all midi synths to be available at all times in realtime, that's how I compose. And with the amount of inputs I have, i am not even able to use all their outputs. My template has every single synth ready to start writing as soon as I load it. Any other way for me is a complete inspiration and workflow killer. :)
This is how I did it when i started in 95 with a mackie desk and this is how i do it today :)

Cheers

[propower]

Ahhh - I should have said that was my other thought... cause it is just like how I work - but I am all with Mics. I have most of my mics (4 at least with 4 more as alternates) set up ready to go at all times for exactly the same reason. Was a lot harder when I was doing all the drum parts with acoustic kit as well and 8 -10 more mics/pres etc... ...

[TNM]

for anyone curious.. the apollo is all a big fallacy.

it is 2.23 ms at 44k RTL through the dsp mixer, but 80% of the fx add latency.. when uad say use 4 uad fx per channel with no additional latency, this only covers very few of the fx. ALL the really good ones have 55 samples or higher latency...

after all this time, i am monitoring through apollo at 8ms latency! Ridiculous!

i have spent a lot of time on this list of latency for EVERY uad plugin:
http://uadforum.com/support-troubles...tml#post239703

There are just 10 missing as demos have expired so i have asked for demo reset, the PDF and post will be updated when i have access to those missing 10 plugins.


I wish i had just gone HDX2 and used 96K.. they guarantee 256 tracks at 96K. I would never need more than 256 tracks.. I could almost get away with 128 tracks at 96K.

But the thing is it is only 0.7 RTL at 96K.. and zero cpu load when using DSP FX.. the dsp fx catalogue is *plentiful* for me.. I mean there's really great stuff in dsp format from mcdsp and plugin alliance for example.. and softube!
The apollo was the biggest blunder of my studio purchasing life.. a total of 11k investment on it so far..

At 96K sure, i can get 1.1 rountrip with apollo, but again all the good plugins add 55 samples latency.. and since HDX is 0.7 ms RTL ( i can live with anything 2.5 and under TOTAL with fx), i feel i have plenty of room to get to 2.5 ms at 96K.
It's certainly going to be a lot better than 8ms in the UAD at 44k.

Why don't i use the uad at 96k? well i'd need a second apollo8.. another $3,700 here.. to add a second 8 channel adat 2, for 16 more channels, to make a total of 32.. i can't use my twin (my current second apollo) cause it doesn't have dual adat ports so i'd lose yet another 4 channels at 96k. They were too tight to allow it to have 8 adat at 96k. Darn.

But still, at 96 k with the effects i generally use it's 3.5 ms latency with apollo..or higher as i also like the effects that are over 100 samples latency.. if i use the fender guitar amp add another 2.5 ish ms to that.. ridiculous ridiculous ridiculous.

So my question is to you fine gents and ladies.. is there info out there anywhere on what latency specific HDX fx have?

I am almost dead set now to sell all my uad gear, the works, and go HDX.. i'll get the HD software, lose the 32 input limit and have lower latency and i don't think i will EVER need to touch my cpu for a thing. All it will run is graphics and midi. Cool.

I think it will really be worth it to get a 20k loan and go HDX.

What avid interfaces give the absolute maximum trs analog input count?

[propower]

HDX is always a good solution for controlled latency and large i/o count. It will lock you into AAX DSP plugins for tracking mostly and that is a box that will not get much bigger (IMO) going forward. Regardless - you can use anything you want on playback channels - only the tracking plugins need to be monitored for latency. WRT sends and reverbs - you will find that in HDX whether you use DSP or Native Reverbs - the direct signal still follows the low latency path of Channel -> Output while the Reverb gets whatever plugin delay (or buffer if its Native) added on.

I sold HDX1, Sonnet Chassis, PT12HD, 16X16 for $5500 this summer. The used market can be an excellent place to buy these things.

There are so many ways to redo your system it would take quite a bit of talking first to figure which might be optimum. Personally - I would want all conversion to be the same so that one latency compensation number would keep all aligned. Also I would want a strict minimum of quality on each channel of conversion taking all the Octopre type things away (for the conversion part). But that's me . HDN only makes all of this harder since it has limited ability to compensate for 3rd party i/o - making AVID i/o the conversion of choice - $2K ea on the used market - $8K for 64. There are other options like the the Orion32 HD that gives 64 ins and DigiLink(HDN/HDX) connector in 1U for $3500. There are other variants with TB but no HDX connector.

In many ways I would think a 64ch patchbay (switchcraft 9664) could simplify things and give 32 live inputs and 32 more just by patching in TT cables using PT Vanilla. Still - to hit under 2.5ms RTL you need the lowest buffer at either 96K or 44.1K. Keeping PT Native at lowest buffer (especially at 96K) is not easy. This is where DSP assisted interfaces really shine (especially for small tracking into large projects).

Last - I love Pro Tools but the Studio One (and I know how you feel about that one has the way better answer for Low Latency tracking in Native. Their Dual Buffer system is very good. I have been tracking 2 to 4 channels with it at 96kHz with zero latency plugins with 1.2ms RTL. Minimal hit on the CPU - no spiking. How I wish AVID could have implemented their dual buffer in Native this way! I also have my alternate tracking path of the Orion and the Antelope FX giving me a stunning 0.3ms to 0.5ms RTL with any DAW I wish. After owning every DigiDesign/AVID DSP system since 1998 - I love being free now to use any DAW that suits me and never worry about latency anymore. I put all those $$$ from hardware sales into FLEA and Josephson Mics - color me happy

[TNM]

Thanks for all the help, always appreciated :)

I created a second presonus account to get a second studio one 3.5.1 demo and i hate it as much as ever..
I can't live without a midi event list or polyphonic aftertouch.. and S1 still has neither..

however, no matter what, i still can't work with that shockingly saturated GUI. It's just so busy.. If i have even just the arranger and the docked mixer open, my eyes are already hurting.. and this was with just 4 tracks to test it.. add the browser on the right and inspector on left, and you might as well hospitalise me.. I am not that old, only 45, yet my eyes can not cope with it.. it is SO busy.. how do you do it?

yes, believe me, i looked at it cause i could have built a nice 48 input quantum system for like 3 grand, all monitoring at 1.67 RTL at 44K through S1 using as many native fx as my computer could handle..
But I hate S1.

Everyone keeps telling me about these amazing second hand deals, yet i never seem to find them. I look every day. FML.

Yes if i was going to go HDX i would get 64 i/o using identical avid converters.
I agree.

I might sell my apollo 8 with the octopremkII as a system for 16 i/o

and keep the twin for my laptop :) That seems to make sense i think.

and start investigating digi HD options.

In the meantime, i still have my 32 channel analog desk and tons of audio interfaces still around the house i can plug that into - a fast track C600, an mbox 3, and an ultralite MK3.. i can get work done without too many interruptions, whilst i put that money away and save for avid.

Not having the HD software in the meantime is still not life changing.. The only feature i would really use out of HD software is the automation trim.. i'm a composer and producer.. i don't do post, or surround. I do work that is always just stereo music at mix down. I also don't do film.

Automation trim would be handy though when i want to move all automation on a track relatively. Right now it's a bit of a PITA!

I also might get a used eleven rack for 300.. they have all the guitar stuff i would ever need, and very low latency.. MUCH lower latency than using apollo's console guitar amps.. i can then go out of the digi out to any of my interfaces spdif in.. all good. Heck even the C600 has it's own low latency digital mixer with a reverb, and much lower latency than apollo.. it has 6 ins.. i could use in 1 and 2 for vocals and an acoustic guitar, input 3 and 4 for the 32 channel mixer, and the spdif for the eleven. At 64 or 128 samples it really does work great with pro tools, no issues at all. I bought it when it was m audio but avid have taken ovder the drivers and have done a splendid job, identical to the mbox 3 driver.

What i need to decide in the meantime, is whether to also sell my uad octo and quad thunderbolt satellites. If so it would make sense to sell all the uad fx too...

You see, if i go hd native it make sense to keep the UAD for mixing purposes, using the fx in PT..

But if i go HDX.. i just don't see the need to complicate things..

my stuff is pristine and i have been checking out realistic sales prices.. an octo satellite with 75 FX can go for about 4K, the apollo 8 quad for 2500 (remember this is all AUD prices), quad satellite for 1100.

About 6500 bucks...

I will put it in a high interest acc for now, for a year, whilst i continue to save and put money into that account.. and in the meantime, what the hell, use the eleven i plan to buy, the apollo twin (or sell that too) or the C600, and my analog desk. I got such a good deal on the desk, you wouldn't believe it.. i got it in AUD less than the USD prices.. so about 30% cheaper in USD than the very best price i could find over there...basically a grand AUD even ($790 US). I didn't say about that before in case people started asking where and PM ing me, when it really WAS the last one at a shop that needed to get rid of it.. but what the heck, i'll say it now. Same desk in US is minimum 1200 USD..

I will ALWAYS keep that analog as it will always provide 32 inputs with 0 added latency that i can incorporate with any system, even a HDX. :)

What i do NOT like are, since that post i made, i have been finding the hdx plugins have nasty latency.. worse than UAD.. BUT the mcdsp stuff doesn't, neither does the avid..
so what it boils down to, i'd have to be happy with mcdsp and avid for all my monitoring, and could use anything else for mixing, like softube, alliance, etc. Very workable situation.
The mcdsp and avid stuff is good enough in many cases, for me to keep much of my work in the midi domain and use HDX like a live analog mixer, where i could mix the sounds going into it without recording to audio.. because Apollo console is uncompensated when using it separate from the DAW there are timing issues against whatever is playing back in pro tools itself...for example, in my current mix, my apollo console RTL is just over 8MS.. so it's 8MS unaligned with the pro tools project, UNLESS i record all the apollo tracks to audio.. which is what i have been doing for now..

I believe with 64 HDX inputs i can keep much in the midi domain and just record guitars and vocals to audio, and specific synths that i want to process with a high latency or non AAXDSP plugin. Still, i imagine my recording to audio will be cut by 80%, and that also means i can edit in the midi domain.. which is always so much faster....

Now.. the final question.. and the big one..

*DOES HDX keep everything time aligned*? This is something that is simply not possible using apollo console..

An example of what i mean..

Say i have 64 channels of live a/d going into HDX, using pro tools as the mixer.. On 32 of those channels i have plugins of varying latency.. First, does the adc of pro tools keep THOSE all aligned with eachother?

Then, say i also have 64 tracks in PT itself.. a mix of VI's and audio tracks.. does it also align them to the PLAYBACK of these tracks with native effects within pro tools itself? ie, AAX instruments like kontakt, etc.. Will my outboard stay in time with them?

To be able to do this, pro tools would need to be able to adc on live monitoring fx in time with playback fx. I presume it CAN do this, but just double checking. This will also be it's MASSIVE win over the apollo. Not to mention.. not worrying about setting levels on 2 octopres, as well as apollo console, as well as pro tools, as well as mixer.. Most of it will all be in one place - pro tools..

Antelope is an option as their DSP mixer is such low latency.. BUT.... they just don't have the effects yet to make it viable.. they keep on releasing eq and comp after comp.. where are the modulation effects, delays, and so on.. They already have enough comp and EQ models to last a lifetime. Oh, and some nice reverb models please! Auraverb not that great. and the ONLY reverb! THAT, and the fact that even the 11K Goliath HD has no thunderbolt pass through, is why i put them aside for now.

Cheers.

PS i would still need some pre amps.. can i add an omni to the system as the main monitor front end? does it have the same a/d latency as the other avid interfaces? Also, why can't i find an avid interface with more than one headphone out? THAT might be a deal breaker as I work with an external vocalist on many projects.

[Dan IceWood]

Say i have 64 channels of live a/d going into HDX, using pro tools as the mixer.. On 32 of those channels i have plugins of varying latency.. First, does the adc of pro tools keep THOSE all aligned with each other?

Yes Pro Tools will keep them all aligned both in monitoring and recording - no user manipulation required.

Then, say i also have 64 tracks in PT itself.. a mix of VI's and audio tracks.. does it also align them to the PLAYBACK of these tracks with native effects within pro tools itself? ie, AAX instruments like kontakt, etc.. Will my outboard stay in time with them?

Yes everything will stay aligned as long as you do not use NATIVE plugins on the record enabled tracks - this is the situation to use DSP only.
What happens in this situation is that Pro Tools will buffer all the PLAYBACK tracks and ensure a constant playback of those tracks in time alignment with the LIVE audio entering and being monitored on the new record enabled AUDIO tracks.
This means you can have 200 tracks with plugins at a PLAYBACK BUFFER of 1024 and your live audio tracks will still be 0.7-1.44ms REAL TIME LATENCY.

With HDX the playback (VI also) buffer will NEVER affect the monitor latency of recording tracks.
As you stated, this IS a massive win over the APOLLO.

Antelope is not a professional solution to these discussed issues.

AVID INTERFACES

Per HDX card you can connect 4 interfaces.
they can be any combination of OMNI, HD i/o, Digidesign 192 - or any other third party interface that uses the DIGI connector.

The Omni provides a "control room" style extra layer of software that gives you monitor options and headphone out + mic preamps.

It is simple to buy a cheap headphone amp for less than $100 that will allow you to feed one headphone output to 2-4 sets of headphones.

If you had 64 channels of LIVE AD into your system then I advise against the OMNI as it will stop you having 64 inputs - also the money is better spent on an external Mic Preamplifier + separate control room station such as the SPL - see link bellow

https://spl.info/en/products/monitor.../overview.html

EACH HDX card has two "DIGIlink mini" port connectors you connect one interface to each of these ports, each interface has another connection that uses the same type of cable and the is called an "expansion port". From this expansion port you may connect one more compatible interface, so the 2 ports on the HDX card are in fact 4 ports in regard to number of connected interfaces.

EACH interface connected to ONE of the FOUR ports is able to send and receive 16 AD channels and 16 DA channels, so 4 interfaces with analog cards will give you 64 Analog inputs with 64 analog outputs. If you don't need 64 analog outputs you can specify at the time of purchase or sell un-used cards.
If you require more than 64 inputs then a second HDX card is needed to allow 128 simultaneous input and output, and a third for 192 in+out.

HD NATIVE has a maximum of 64 in+out and you CAN NOT use additional cards to increase inputs.

[TNM]

Hi Dan and thank you. Been sick, sorry for delay.


Everything you say sounds good, although i don't understand how an omni can stop me having 64 ins when i will have 2 HDX cards... I thought it was 64 ins per card, so even if i use an omni on one as the monitor centre, i can still have plenty of ways to get to 64 ins.

I think maybe you meant if i only use one HDX card? I think that would limit me in voice count especially at 96K.. The key for me is touching the computer cpu as little as possible, and the lowest latency possible.

I just realised i'd need a good thunderbolt pcie double chassis, which will no doubt have a fan, and the cards have a fan, so this all might be too noisy for me - another obstacle. Still just not sure what to do..

Another option is just to go windows, i can build a desktop system with internal space for the cards.. will just need to use a compatible mobo.. this is all going to be so expensive.. still lots of decisions to be made here!