HW Buffer Size

[chrisdee]

Originally Posted by adam79

What do you mean by "monitoring analog?"

I mean I listen to the signal befor it goes through the DAW. Straight from the preamp to my headphone amp. You need a pre with send and a headphone amp with two inputs. One from the preamp send and the other from the DAW. Alternatively you could use a mixer.

[7Seas]

Originally Posted by chrisdee

I mean I listen to the signal befor it goes through the DAW. Straight from the preamp to my headphone amp. You need a pre with send and a headphone amp with two inputs. One from the preamp send and the other from the DAW. Alternatively you could use a mixer.

But when you have to punch-in, you will be hearing from the daw + the signal from your pre (with zero latency), are there any problems when listening to both in terms of timing? The daw signal comes with delay while the signal from the pre does not... won't they be out of sync in the daw?

Personally I don't think it is a problem, you just won't here your punch-in with delay, but the track in the daw will remain synced...

[adam79]

Originally Posted by Darryl Ramm

I am pretty sure that these mid-2012 MacBook Pro Retina's has a M.2 like form factor SSD but it's using a SATA III connection on that drive, nothing like the fast PCIe and PCIe/NVMe M.2 like drives used in later MacBook Pros. I would not recommend using that SATA SSD as a combined boot/system and audio drive. The later PCIe based drives, sure go for it. So you should be using a Thunderbolt or USB 3 external drive. I'd go for SSD. A good low-cost option is a Samsung T3 drive. It's based on the Samsung 850 Evo SATA III SSD internally. You can get still higher peroance with thunderbolt to PCIe SSDs but at higher price.

My laptop is a Mid 2014 (not a Mid 2012).. MacBook Pro (Retina, 15-inch, Mid 2014). How do I find out if I have the SATA III or PCIe/NVMe M.2?

I was checking out those two HD's you mentioned; they both sound great! The Samsung 850 Evo SATA III SSD seems like the better drive (great reviews), but it's internal and I need an external. The Samsung T3 gets great reviews too, so I'll probably go with that one. My last HD was a Western Digital and it wasn't too reliable; it broke down fairly quickly and I lost a ton of files. I'll never buy that brand again.

Originally Posted by Darryl Ramm

But are you monitoring thought the UA Console or Pro Tools? This is the third time I've asked the same question.

I just went thru the Apollo manual and couldn't find an answer to your question. I use the monitor output on my Apollo when mixing, so maybe that answers your question.

Originally Posted by Darryl Ramm

First get your audio/session disk properly set up (off your boot drive), turn on disk cache, turn off dynamic plugin processing, make sure the system is fully optimized... then...

When I first bought my Apollo and Pro Tools software I went thru the optimization guidelines, so I've already got my system optimized for PT.

Originally Posted by Darryl Ramm

If you are monitoring through Pro Tools. Then just try reducing the buffer size and seeing what you can get away with start at say 128 and go up or down if you can/need to. It's always a trade off between stability and latency. Latency sensitivity depends greatly on the talent you are recoding. And it depends a lot on Pro Tools plugin processing load. You should avoid UAD plugins in Pro Tools while tracking, try freezing/committing native and UAD plugins in Pro Tools and run UAD plugins in the console while tracking

I usually use "Low Latency Monitoring" option, but some of the plugins I use give me an error message about them not being compatible with this setting, so I have to turn it off.

Originally Posted by Darryl Ramm

Huh? Where exactly in what exact doc does it name the drive model or type (e.g. SATA III SSD) you have and says that is OK to combine as a boot/system and audio drive? Sure you can always do stuff like that for a few audio tracks at a large IO buffer size with no plugins, ... but ...

You have not had any issues? Tracking at what buffer size, how any tracks at what sample rate? if you are going to try to reduce the IO buffer size then this poor disk setup may cause you problems.

Yes you should use a HD for backup/archiving (better long term *powered off* lifetime than an SSD). But especially if you want to track at low IO buffer sizes you likely want to get off that internal SATA SSD onto a dedicated audio drive/SSD.

I forget where I read that it's perfectly alright to record to the internal SSD boot drive with Pro Tools. I also wrote PT tech support and they gave me the go ahead. Like I was saying, I've had zero issues with this method.

I haven't had any issues using the SSD boot drive for recording. The track count depends on the session. I usually go with 24bits at 44.1Hz when tracking. Once I get a second HD I'll probably move up to 48 or 96Hz since I'll have extra HD space to work with.

Once I save up the cash to buy the HD, I'll try using it to record my PT sessions to see if there's a quality difference.

What's you're take on creating HD partitions. Some articles I've read recommend setting up a partition for recording and another for backup. Others say the partitions put too much strain on the HD and to just leave it be (no partitions).

As far as the HW Buffer size goes, I also use a low buffer size when tracking, 64 or 128, and then 512 or 1024 when mixing.

Thanks for all the help,
-Adam

[adam79]

If you just Google "Pro Tools recording with SSD Boot Drive" you'll see a ton of forum threads of people doing just this with no issues. I definitely need a backup hard drive, but I'm probably just gonna go with Seagate 1TB 5400 RPM that's under $60. I don't have the cash at the moment to drop two hundo on a hard drive. It's not quick enough to record with, but it will free up much needed space on my boot drive, as well as add space for other things. I'd rather save money for a pair of studio monitors.

[chrisdee]

Originally Posted by 7Seas

But when you have to punch-in, you will be hearing from the daw + the signal from your pre (with zero latency).

No problem. I always mute the track in Pro Tools so I'm only hearing the direct preamp signal.
Actually I have a own muted track just for recording in every session. When I'm done recording I just move the region up to a unmuted track.

[7Seas]

Originally Posted by chrisdee

No problem. I always mute the track in Pro Tools so I'm only hearing the direct preamp signal.
Actually I have a own muted track just for recording in every session. When I'm done recording I just move the region up to a unmuted track.

Cool. Thanks.

[Darryl Ramm]

Originally Posted by adam79

If you just Google "Pro Tools recording with SSD Boot Drive" you'll see a ton of forum threads of people doing just this with no issues. I definitely need a backup hard drive, but I'm probably just gonna go with Seagate 1TB 5400 RPM that's under $60. I don't have the cash at the moment to drop two hundo on a hard drive. It's not quick enough to record with, but it will free up much needed space on my boot drive, as well as add space for other things. I'd rather save money for a pair of studio monitors.

-EDIT-

And on DUC you'll see many of those posts are by uh *me*, specifically talking about the fast PCIe SSDs in some Mac computers.

And now that I see you provided corrected information the MacBook Pro (Retina, 15-inch, Mid 2014) you have--that changes everything. That MBP has a M.2 type form factor *PCIe* SSD. Early drives at least in that MBP were PCIe SSD x2 lane, some drives may be x4 lane and offer higher performance. OS X system information for your drive show the number of lanes for that drive. Still either are much higher perforamnce than SATA III (6 Gbs) SSD drives.

You were asking about reducing IO buffer size for tracking. But again, if you are monitoring through the Apollo Console then just leave the playback buffer set large.

Back to that: You need to undertand monitoring option, you payed for all this in the Apollo, make sure you undertand it. A simple starting step is to go mute all tracks you are recoding to in Pro Tools. Play with the Apollo Console so you now hear those armed tracks via the console. Just play around and understand stuff. This is analogous to the other posts here talking about analog monitoring or monitoring through an analog console. All zero/very low latency ways of monitoring without putting any additional load on the DAW. And in the Apollo Console you get to monitor through and track through (if you want) UAD plugins running in the Apollo console (*not* Pro Tools).

[Darryl Ramm]

What's you're take on creating HD partitions. Some articles I've read recommend setting up a partition for recording and another for backup. Others say the partitions put too much strain on the HD and to just leave it be (no partitions).

No. No. No. The primary reason you create partitions (on SSD or HDD) are to install separate bootable OS images on the computer. There may also sometimes be reasons related to backup and restore software/procedures, but unless you know you need to do this, are an advanced systems admin type person just leave crap alone.

You should not be ever sharing a HDD as a boot/system and recording drive. (yes I know you don't have a HDD, but you are reading confused "advice" about HDDs). Some confused folks talk about partitioning that drive so there is a separate boot/system and audio/session partitions. They don't realize that makes things *worse* not better. The systems requirements when using HDD is you have separate disk drives for boot/system and audio/session files. It is a simple as that, separate disk drives means exactly that, not two partitions on a single drive. It's sad how much this crap persists out in the Interwebs and on DUC.

[adam79]

Originally Posted by Darryl Ramm

No. No. No. The primary reason you create partitions (on SSD or HDD) are to install separate bootable OS images on the computer. There may also sometimes be reasons related to backup and restore software/procedures, but unless you know you need to do this, are an advanced systems admin type person just leave crap alone.

You should not be ever sharing a HDD as a boot/system and recording drive. (yes I know you don't have a HDD, but you are reading confused "advice" about HDDs). Some confused folks talk about partitioning that drive so there is a separate boot/system and audio/session partitions. They don't realize that makes things *worse* not better. The systems requirements when using HDD is you have separate disk drives for boot/system and audio/session files. It is a simple as that, separate disk drives means exactly that, not two partitions on a single drive. It's sad how much this crap persists out in the Interwebs and on DUC.

Luckily I never partitioned my SSD boot drive. I've been reading up on external drives. Some people swear by external SSD drives for recording while others prefer the HDD drives due to the fact that they write at faster speeds than the SSD's. From what I've read, excessive writing on SSD drives lowers the life expectancy of the SSD drive. Others disagree with this theory and swear by the SSD's. Do you guys recommend I buy an external SSD or HDD (running at atleast 7200 RPMs)?

I'll probably go with a SSD drive; they're much cheaper than the high RPM HDD drives. The Samsung T3 you recommended seems like a solid drive. I also have been looking at the PNY Elite SSD drive. It's only $79 for the 240GB and $129 for the 480GB; The T3 is $181 for 500GB. Anyone familiar with the PNY Elite? It's more in my my price range. Thanks.

[Darryl Ramm]

Originally Posted by adam79

Some people swear by external SSD drives for recording while others prefer the HDD drives due to the fact that they write at faster speeds than the SSD's. From what I've read, excessive writing on SSD drives lowers the life expectancy of the SSD drive. Others disagree with this theory and swear by the SSD's. Do you guys recommend I buy an external SSD or HDD (running at atleast 7200 RPMs)?

I'll probably go with a SSD drive; they're much cheaper than the high RPM HDD drives. The Samsung T3 you recommended seems like a solid drive. I also have been looking at the PNY Elite SSD drive. It's only $79 for the 240GB and $129 for the 480GB; The T3 is $181 for 500GB. Anyone familiar with the PNY Elite? It's more in my my price range. Thanks.

Now I'm confused, if you have space on the MBP internal PCIe SSD record to that. If you don't have space on that then sure get a external T3 for an audio/session drive. If you are after a backup/archive drive then get a quality HDD (not an SSD).

You seem to be reading too much stuff and unable to filter male cow manure, or badly out of date information, from relevant information. No HDD has performance exceeding a good SSD, at worse you are limited by SATA III perforamnce, at best with PCIE SSDs sequential throughput of a drive is several times to an order of magnitude or more (for every high end NVMe/PCIE SSDs) faster than a good HDD.

I've already recommended you just get a T3 if you want an external audio/session drive, my advice is you just listen to that advice. The PNY Elite is not even comparable to something like the T3. If there was something else as good as a T3 I'd have recommended it. There are lots of intersting more expensive options but I already went to a cost-efficient choice for you.