Hd vs Le Summing

[O.G. Killa]

Originally Posted by Oli P

If you take the exact same mix on a HD rig, and make a bounce with all the plugs as TDM...and then change them all to RTAS, it won't phase cancel...so it can't be exactly the same on a LE rig compared to a HD rig...when it's not even the same on the same rig.

Usually, an HD mix and an LE mix will cancel out, depending on the plugins used.

Using RTAS within HD is not the same as using LE. It's totally different in fact.

[BradLyons]

Originally Posted by NuBus

I think the point of this post is that there wasn't an A-Ha moment

Night and Day between LE and HD

He spent the cash and the ROI isn't presenting it's self with his mix comparison

HD offers more I/O's that's about it.............

There can not be an "ah-ha" moment if it's not following all conditions. Summing isn't over-rated, it's misunderstood IMHO---the leading culprit I feel is many are expecting that "ah-ha" moment. It takes many little events to turn into a big deal, collectively lots of tracks added up the issues build up more. For example, upgrading from a 96I/O to a 192I/O won't all of a sudden make everything sound worlds apart, but collectively when tracking----it adds up. That little bit here and little bit there.

Do I have summing in my studio? NO, not right now.... but I have taken home a Dangerous 2-Bus and have done listening testing myself with others present. Was the difference this glowing difference? No, but it sure did help give me more headroom, more clarity in my stereo imagining, and more flexibility when routing to some outboard gear.

Several years ago, I did a similar test using a Digi002 w/a Pro Tools HD3 Accel-----I took a session that was previously recorded on an EMU Paris system which was a great sounding DAW. I created the session in PTLE then copied it to the HD system. To be fair, I used the Apogee DA16X feeding 8-channels from the 002 and 8-channels via a 192Digital. The monitors were ADAM S2A's using 1000-series Monster Cable. I then routed the analog output back into an AD16X to capture the tracks. When playing both sessions with faders at unity gain, there was no sonic difference. I then started inserting plugins using WAVES TDM v/s RTAS..... at that point, I started hearing some changes...minor ones, but hearing them none the less. When I recorded the tracks, there was less high-end on the LE setup---it still sounded good, don't get me wrong. Then came the real test...FADER AUTOMATION! Where internal summing falls apart is when you get into the mix engine because truncation and dithering hit. Visually looking at the new waveforms, you could clearly see the difference and sonically----it was there too. When I then sent stems out digitally---it cleared up on LE quite a bit, as well as HD. FYI these were 32-track sessions with 16-busses. I no longer have this session, maybe some day I'll block a weekend out and do this again and provide it for download for those that want it?

With all of that said you absolutely can get professional results out of an LE rig if you have pro converters, pres, mics, monitors, etc. Should you do summing? Well, there clearly is a benefit----but don't expect that to be the answer you've been looking for all your life. The same is true between PTLE and HD..... there are many advantages to PTLE but it doesn't mean that upgrading to HD now your whole world is improved. Yes, it makes it easier..... and you get a great deal more, but don't discount PTLE for what it is. I know many pros doing pro work with it. And that includes using an LE rig with summing boxes.

[ajv205]

Who cares if there is a perceived .001 percent improvement or degradation? So many folks out there worrying about such mundane things instead of getting good at the actual art of mixing or correctly capturing performances.

[Keybeeetsss]

Originally Posted by ajv205

Who cares if there is a perceived .001 percent improvement or degradation? So many folks out there worrying about such mundane things instead of getting good at the actual art of mixing or correctly capturing performances.

(clapping my hands to this one)

[Ted Spencer]

Originally Posted by usastra

The whole summing issue is a bit overrated IMO...

It certainly isn't (IMPO) if we're comparing HD to a TDM Mix system. I had the latter for many years and simply hated the way ITB mixes sounded, more so the larger they got. BTW I was using Apogee converters and Genelec 1030as. I still have those mixes, and I still hate them. All of them. Whenever I brought the mix channels out to my custom 32ch analog console though, things sounded drastically better. So I did that whenever possible, but sometimes it wasn't.

When I upgraded to HD, the first thing I noticed was the improvement in ITB mixing. IMO it's ok now. I still prefer coming out to the console, but being forced to stay 'inside' isn't nearly as punishing as before.

So...yeah, the summing issue certainly hasn't been "overrated" for me...

[c.evans]

I just can't stop myself from posting when I read about listening comparisons that are not blind.

If you are not doing blind listening tests to pick a winner then what is the point? Anyone who knows which source is the TDM summing and which is the LE is most likely going to pick the TDM as sounding superior simply because they know that it is supposed to sound better.

I did some blind listening tests with a Dangerous summing box and the same mix summed inside PT TDM and I could not hear $2000 knocking me in the ears. Honestly I could not pick which was which. I have a very nice system and listening environment and I could not tell.

I really liked the fit and finish of the Dangerous box and I would highly recommend it for monitor switching and patching outboard gear but I just can't see spending 2K so that I can tell myself that my mixes sound better when I can't actually hear a noticeable improvement.

If others have great experiences with outboard summing more power to you but I think it would make much more sense if you are going to go outboard to just hit a console and incorporate much more analog gear into the mix.

My two cents.

Chad

[Howardk]

Regardless of even ADC, I would expect there are timing differences between TDM and RTAS Plugins, due to latency differences, so of course it will not phase cancel. Also, any FXs with modulation while not phase cancel. . . so I would not put too much stock on phase cancellation as a final decision maker.

[O.G. Killa]

Originally Posted by Howardk

Regardless of even ADC, I would expect there are timing differences between TDM and RTAS Plugins, due to latency differences, so of course it will not phase cancel. Also, any FXs with modulation while not phase cancel. . . so I would not put too much stock on phase cancellation as a final decision maker.

Depending on the plugins used, PTLE will compensate for them (reports them as having 0 samples of latency in LE). Phase cancelling will tell you if there really IS a difference and what that difference is.

If everything nulls EXCEPT the vocal track in certain spots... and when looking at the vocal track you realize you have autotune on it... and the spots where it DOESN'T null are the spots where AT is doing the most drastic pitch correction...That will tell you the mixes are identical except for that one plugin.

Unless the person is using a lot of DSP hungry or "Look-ahead" plugins the two mixes should cancel each other out. Which will tell you they are identical... if they don't, then it will tell you what is different.

The only time you might really run into problems is if you don't really know what you are doing and you are pushing the levels really hot through your plugins and mix busses. LE is a little more "idiot-proof" in that regard where it's harder to actually clip the signal.

[Dog BBQ]

I think if you take the time and do Separate mixes on each platform they will both sound great

I don't think just opening the same session would lend it's self to a good comparison

"I can hear the 60 year old TDM technology in this Mix"

And on the analog part of this post many producers use Protools as a Recording Editing platform and use the option of Multiple I/O's to feed their desks I believe if the Native version allowed more than 16 I/O's they'd be using that!!!!

[Howardk]

Originally Posted by O.G. Killa

Depending on the plugins used, PTLE will compensate for them (reports them as having 0 samples of latency in LE). Phase cancelling will tell you if there really IS a difference and what that difference is.

If everything nulls EXCEPT the vocal track in certain spots... and when looking at the vocal track you realize you have autotune on it... and the spots where it DOESN'T null are the spots where AT is doing the most drastic pitch correction...That will tell you the mixes are identical except for that one plugin.

Unless the person is using a lot of DSP hungry or "Look-ahead" plugins the two mixes should cancel each other out. Which will tell you they are identical... if they don't, then it will tell you what is different.

The only time you might really run into problems is if you don't really know what you are doing and you are pushing the levels really hot through your plugins and mix busses. LE is a little more "idiot-proof" in that regard where it's harder to actually clip the signal.

I believe there are a few more caveats than mentioned, related to timing/latency, when doing TDM and RTAS mix null out comparisons..

Question, why consider LE more idiot-proof for clips?