Pre-fader metering doesn't affect auxes?

[jstaczek]

I'm still an idiot (see previous post), but pre-fader metering on my HD2 system only affects audio tracks, not auxes. Is this as it's supposed to be?

[Stig Eliassen]

Pre-fader metering is for audio tracks only. You record on these audio tracks so it's convenient to switch to pre-fader metering to check levels.

[jstaczek]

True, but when I'm tracking, I usually have the faders at unity, so pre/post levels are identical. I do headphone/monitor mixes OTB.

I'm just switching to mixing ITB and I've been reading and re-reading the 48-bit whitepaper and trying to get my head around auxes and master faders. So what I actually think I want is pre-master fader metering on an aux input. I was hoping to be able to see how hot a buss was going into an aux before scaling it down with a master fader, but I don't think there's any metering point that will show you that. Except, I think, just temporarily bringing the MF on that buss back to unity.

While I'm on this topic, if I'm understanding the 48-bit mixer paper correctly, the correct practice for bussing tracks to an aux is to also include a master fader on that buss to avoid "clipping the output side" of the bus. If so, it would be great if aux tracks came with a built-in MF trim control for their input buss to keep track count and organization under control.

Any comments from ITB veterans on this subject?

[Andre Knecht]

See if this won’t help make sense of things:

[Copied and edited from an earlier post]

Master Faders — the most widely misunderstood feature in ProTools.

A Master Fader does NOT control an Output, but, rather, the Input of a logical address (a path) in the PT mixer. It’s a subtle but fundamental difference. Think of a Master Fader as an attenuator placed at the input of any mixer component and you’re on the right (ahem) track.

A Master Fader does NOT govern the routing of signals because it is placed at the input of a (any) stage within the PT mixer. The routing of signals is determined by the output selector found on each PT channel (“track,” in ProTools-speak). The Output selector is the equivalent to an analog console’s buss selector (typically found at the top of a strip). A Master Fader is the equivalent to the Trim pot for a line input channel on an analog console (i.e. a return from the multi-track recorder).
For each and every channel (PT “track”), be it Audio or AUX, the user determines its destination(s). That’s where the routing occurs. A master Fader only controls the summed level of these routing decisions.

These “Master Faders” — these attenuators — are always present with their gain set to 0 dB (i.e. no attenuation) whenever one instantiates any routing. The act of adding a Master Fader to a session, is to make the attenuator visible, so its value can be changed.

This seems like a good spot/time to pause and [again] stipulate that the PT documentation could be a wee bit (cough) more detailed about all this. Having said that, fundamentally this isn’t any different from what one finds on an analog console. It’s just a matter of how much is made available to the operator, and how. Over the years, commonly needed and used paths in hardware consoles have been made available via “normalled” and dedicated paths — convenience vs. versatility. Within ProTools, these “standard” paths are also available — they just need to be “created” from scratch.

[End of earlier post]

With the above in mind, you can easily accomplish your goals…

So what I actually think I want is pre-master fader metering on an aux input. I was hoping to be able to see how hot a buss was going into an aux before scaling it down with a master fader, but I don't think there's any metering point that will show you that. Except, I think, just temporarily bringing the MF on that buss back to unity.

You just may be over-thinking the issue. Instantiating a Master fader for a bus will show you (and allow you to trim) the level of all signals summed to that bus. There’s no need for a pre-fader reading on an AUX — that’s the job of a master fader assigned to the same bus. This master fader will display the level of the signal being fed to its destination (be that an AUX, a send, or an interface output).

While I'm on this topic, if I'm understanding the 48-bit mixer paper correctly, the correct practice for bussing tracks to an aux is to also include a master fader on that buss to avoid "clipping the output side" of the bus. If so, it would be great if aux tracks came with a built-in MF trim control for their input buss to keep track count and organization under control.

True, except that now you’re overlooking another great feature of Master Faders — the ability to instantiate (post-fader) inserts on them, which buys you increased flexibility in “conditioning” a signal for its destination and intended use.

IHTH.


PS: You’re not an idiot — quite the opposite. True idiots don’t read documentation, nevermind white papers. Also, they parade their collection of exclamation points up and down their village’s main street, daily.

[jstaczek]

True, except that now you’re overlooking another great feature of Master Faders — the ability to instantiate (post-fader) inserts on them, which buys you increased flexibility in “conditioning” a signal for its destination and intended use.

Thanks for the reply, Andre. That does help. If I understand correctly, if you have a Master Fader on a bus feeding an AUX, the Master Fader inserts are in exactly the same place in the signal chain as the pre-fader inserts on the AUX? And, if I continue to understand correctly, the extra flexibility comes from being able to automate the MF. Essentially you get pre-fader automation on the AUX. Nice for plugs, I guess, that don't have input level controls but that actually respond well to driving their inputs harder. Any well-known plugs like that come to mind (remember, I'm completely new to ITB mixing!)?

Still wish there weren't two tracks per AUX (MF + AUX), but I can see how the extra flexibility would come in handy from time to time.

Again, I appreciate the response.

Jason
www.chromasound.net

[Andre Knecht]

You’re welcome, Jason. Glad to to be of help.



[…] If I understand correctly, if you have a Master Fader on a bus feeding an AUX, the Master Fader inserts are in exactly the same place in the signal chain as the pre-fader inserts on the AUX?

Yes.



And, if I continue to understand correctly, the extra flexibility comes from being able to automate the MF. Essentially you get pre-fader automation on the AUX.

Or send, or hardware path. The latter don’t offer insert slots — added flexibility beyond automation. When you factor in these options, its value might become more apparent.



Nice for plugs, I guess, that don't have input level controls but that actually respond well to driving their inputs harder. Any well-known plugs like that come to mind (remember, I'm completely new to ITB mixing!)?

Harder and/or softer! I can’t think of specific plug-ins lacking input attenuators. Then again, the issue may be (and often is) as simple as ensuring that one’s bus signal isn’t clipping.



Still wish there weren't two tracks per AUX (MF + AUX), but I can see how the extra flexibility would come in handy from time to time.

You can always hide your MF (hey now) after adjustments have been made. Personally, I prefer this arrangement — it’s easy to spot and access a MF in a crowded mixer. (I always paint my sub-AUX and MF combos with a bright color, turning them into mixer “bookmarks” of sorts).

IHTH.