recording drums:equipment list

[rems]

I curently use the digi001 for recording and I'm planning to start recording drums. I hope you can help me with these questions:

1) which would be better to get Presonus Digimax, Digimax LT, Focusrite Octopre or a MAckie analog board (vlz or similar)? How would the rest compare?
2) For overheads which would be better shure sm81s, rode nt5, rode ntk (i already have one) or rode nt1 (i also have one)? How would the rest compare?
3) For toms I know the senheiser md421 is costlier than the e604 but how do they compare?
4) Will it be nonmusical to use 2 different overhead mics (for example nt1 with ntk)?

Please give me all the help and knowlege you can. Thanks in advance!

[Calvin]

Hey man,

I'm sorry this isn't going to be all that helpful but I will give you what information I have.

I can't compare the octopre to anything, I have never heard it. As for the mackie board one thing that you have to think about is that it is only going to give you 6 more imputs unless you buy another Analog to lightpipe converter to use more channels at once. If you bought either the digimax or the octopre it would allow you to have a total of 10 inputs, while just a mackie board would only allow you to do up to 8. But at the same time both a mackie board and a 300 dollar alesis ai3 will cost you about the same as the octopre with the digital card anyway, and that would allow you to use all 16 inputs so thats something to think about as well.

I do believe that both the digimax and the octopre have better pre's in them than the mackie boards do. If you are going the Digimax route you certainly don't need to get the more expensive 96 k version. While it does have limiters on each channel that would be good for drums, you have no need for the 96k converters. The Absolute best thing to do is to go on ebay and watch out for one of the Original digimaxs. The very first ones that came out were a steal. They have all of the exact same features as the 96 k version with limiters and all, they just converted at 48k instead of 96k. Thats exactly what you want. The LT's are newer, but they don't have nearly the features that the originals did. Here is another thing. People seem to thinkg that the originals aren't as good as the newer LTs. Wrong!!, however this is great, because you can get a original off of ebay for really cheap. I just got mine for 650. If you are going to do this, I would do it pretty soon as it is getting harder and harder to find one of the original digimaxs.

Sorry I don't know much about your mic's that your chosing from for your overheads. Personally I think I am going to invest in a pair of oktava mc012, however I am waiting for more reviews to come out for the studioprojects C4's but those mic's look really good as well and for only 360 they are a steal.

As for toms I haven't heard the second kind, but man I have used md421s on toms and I must say that they are the only mic that I am going to be using on toms. Enough said.

I would try to keep your overheads as close to a matched pair as possible. Even trying to keep things level at the board won't always make up for the ways that 2 mic's pick things up different, you might end up with a lopsided or a weird sounding overheads.

Sorry I know that this isn't full of great information, but I am telling you from my experiance what way I am going.

[dwkick]

here's my 2 cents. I do have the mackie 1602vlz and think it does well. don't have any experience with anything else. but it is quiet. no noise added to the tracks from the mackie. i as well would try to stick to at least the same model overheads. course people have come up with award winning tracks with weird configs. if you have those two rodes, throw em up and see how they sound. not to sound cliche but if it sounds good, it is good..

[guitarBigsky]

I have to agree with Calvin on his points. The Digimax is quite good. The limiters are perfect for drums.....punchy and very useable. For overheads....I use a pair of GT44's....I got them on closeout when Alesis was their distributor. Great mics.

Later.
guitarBigsky

[where02190]

IMHO the Octapre is the way to go, great sounding pre's, excellent converters.

A pair of NTk's would be an excellent choice for overheads.

I rarely use tom mics, overheads are IMHO the critical mics in drums. However, 421's are a good choice but pricey. 57's do a great job at 1/3 the price, and the sennheiser e609 silver series at $99 each are killer.

57 on the snare is the way to go, the proven standard of standards.

A Shure Beta 52, AKG D-112, or EV RE20 are great kick mics. the new Sennheisere602 is also a great choice.

Hat micing is IMHO a waste of time.

A room mic, preferably an omni (I love the AKG C4000B) even in a so -so room makes a great deal of depth.

Hope this is helpful.

[Matt Whritenour]

I have a question, Why does everyone think you cant use the inputs on the back of the digi without extra pre's? yeah they may not be as good as pre's and if you need to run phantom power. but you can get away with them just how they are... right now when i record drums i use my 2 overheads in the 2 inputs on the front cuz i need phantom power... then all my other drum mics just go into the inputs on the back without any extra pre's... you can adjust the gain in the settings in PT... When recording drums I have a 57 on the top and bottom of the snare mic the kick then a mic on each tom and those all go into the inputs on the back of the digi... i would one day like to get pres for those inputs... but i just wanna make sure u know u can use them how they are... but also before u get pre's for those u are better off getting like a digimax or something so that u do have more channels...

ok i dont remember what i wrote but im gonna go to bed now.. if i wrote something all messed up you'll probably make a comment then i'll fix it tommorow well later

[Chris Cavell]

Originally posted by rems:
I curently use the digi001 for recording and I'm planning to start recording drums. I hope you can help me with these questions:

[QB]1) which would be better to get Presonus Digimax, Digimax LT, Focusrite Octopre or a MAckie analog board (vlz or similar)? How would the rest compare?

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Personally, I would hunt around for an original digimax as the built-in limiters prove themselves times after time when tracking drums. Be careful and try never to instantiate the Pads as they really boost the noise floor of the unit. The focusrite is alright, but I think the original digimax (not the 96k or LT) would suit the specific case of drums a little better.

2) For overheads which would be better shure sm81s, rode nt5, rode ntk (i already have one) or rode nt1 (i also have one)? How would the rest compare? [/QUOTE]

It really depends on the style. For heavy rock type tracking, just about any set of large diaphragms will do, but I prefer a nice pair of AKG C414's for this. If it's anwhere between songwriter and jazz, I'd go for a pair of Oktava MC012's. They're cheap, but don't let the pricetag fool you. I'd pick them over a matched set of earthwoks any day! Set the mics in ORTF for the most versatility during mixdown (best use of S1 shufflers by WAVES or a simple double MS setup), and maybe one of you're more expensive low noise mics as a room mic (the NTK or bottle). I usually place the overhead a about two feet above the drummers head and just in front of him/her, so that the mics are somewhere between the drummer and kit. The closer to the drummer, the more realistic the toms sound, the farther away, the better for rock! Also, for the best cymbal sound, aim/tilt them toward the outer edge of the outermost cymbals (this may define the height of the mics if you stick to ORTF). Also, be sure to get a universally jointed T-bar, because the others often get in the way of the drummer.

3) For toms I know the senheiser md421 is costlier than the e604 but how do they compare? [/QUOTE]

For rock toms, it's really, and I mean really hard to beat 421's. The only problem is that they are so large and clunky and the clips stink. I'd recommend a set of four Audix D2's for your toms (many would recommend the D3 or D4 for floor, but I find the D1 really adds clarity where the others are a bit woofy). 4 should be plenty for any kit you come across, and be sure to order the d-flex clips. They're alot easier to squeeze in to tight spots. Also, keep in mind that the Audix D-series are hypercardioid, meaning that the point of least bleed occurs roughly 30-45 degrees of axis from the rear of the mic. (these shouldn't cost more than a set of 4 57's or 58's.) With good settings on a gate and a great OH sound, the audix will do wonders whether on rock or subtle jazz.

4) Will it be nonmusical to use 2 different overhead mics (for example nt1 with ntk)? [/QUOTE]

Most Definitely!!! Like I said, go for the recording industry's little secret, the Oktava Mc012/Mk012's!!! The only thing that I prefer more is a set of AKG BLUE LINE cardioids!!!


I hope my little opinions here help you decide, and maybe save some dough while you're at it. (I'm surprised you didn't mention kick or snare???)

Keep in mind that the most influential part of the entire setup is the drummer, followed by the kit, and then the room. Go to a local store or university and bug them until they teach you how to tune drums better than anyone in the neighborhood. What I've described above is what I've found to be the most versatile means of working with drums that I've found, period.

Good luck tracking, and be sure to post an mp3 of the results! [img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img]

-Chris

[where02190]

Originally posted by luzer_kidd:
I have a question, Why does everyone think you cant use the inputs on the back of the digi without extra pre's?

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Inputs 1/2 are mic or line inputs with continuiously variable input gain compensation (with pad) andNeutriks dual connectors (XLR or TRS).

Inputs 3-8 are +4db balanced line inputs. There is a major impedance mismatch if you use mics into the line inputs. While you can adjust the input sensitivity in the software settings to get enough level with certain mics, the quality of the audio is severely degraded. A simple A/B comparison will rveal the differences.

Hope this is helpful.

[La Flange]

Well if you had proper impedence transformers on dynamics for the rear inputs you could get by, and I'd be just as inclined to do that as use a Mackie mixer for preamps. I'm no fan of Mackie or Behringer for studio use, they both just use op-amps on a rail power supply, and the more mic pre's share the rail the worse they all get. I consider Soundcraft a bare minimum. Those new RME preamp racks sure look promising too, perfect accompaniment for a computer interface, and bound to be a much better value than an Octopre or Digimax.

And I agree whole-heartedly with Where02190, the overheads are the key signal and the close dynamics should only be used to add body to the drums but time-sync them leave them exactly where they are in the overheads. If done right, the stereo image is life-like and it brings credibility to the whole recording because it feels like there's a drummer in the room rather than several standing in front of individual kit pieces. But I've made good use of a high-hat mic where the drummer was a real heavy-hitter and the desired sound was in-your-face.

The only rather unusual item on my list is a hypercardiod dynamic (like a Beta57) under the snare. I'm not big on the chain sound, but it gets the best isolation on the snare and is perfect to use as a gate trigger. When I'm not using it in the mix I nudge that track ahead a few ms so the gate is fully open just in time for the snare shot. Hello Mr Snap.

Other than that, any way you can get a real analog saturation on drums is worthwhile. Rent a decent dual tube preamp, use it on the overheads during tracking, then run the dynamics through it after the fact with some compression and limiting to get a hot signal through the tubes. Despite the d/a a/d conversion it always helps. Tracking to analog reels is good too.

[rems]

Whoa!!! Thanks all for your replies! Really helped a lot here. Didnt even looked at the oktavas thinking they were as low quality as their price might imply. I didnt know either that the OHs were that important. Guess I'll track the OHs with my great rivers mp2nv and the rest of the kit with digimax or octopre or whatever I decide to buy. By the way, can that be done (track using mp2nv at the same time as a digimax)? I guess I can as long as the output of the mp2nv goes to the digi001 rear input and not to a a/d converter as I have now.