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  #1  
Old 01-04-2018, 11:44 AM
Wire57 Wire57 is offline
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Default Absolute beginners, Beat Detective

I had hoped that my last post in my thread "Absolute beginners questions" would go noticed, but apparently it didn't.
After many more trials I messed up my session so much I had to delete it completely. So here comes my unsolved question. The screenshots are from the now deleted session, but the project I still wish to do.

So my next question seems to be tricky - maybe it's not, but for me it is.
Concerning the Beat Detective.
I am in an adventurous project with a young guy from Zimbabwe who sent me an audio track of himself singing and being accompanied by a guitar, and he plays some Mbira (Kalimba) pattern to his song.
I am trying to have some instruments to this and started with adding a drum.
Of course, for synching the audio with the added instruments in ProTools, the Beat Detective is my choice.
And for the first measures, everything works well.
But then, all of a sudden, the beat detective finds a tempo change which is, from the audio, absolutely not there. But this tempo change causes the drum to be ahead of the audio for the rest of the session.
Even worse, everytime a new (false) tempo change is found by the Beat Detective, the aberration of timing is being added to the previous ones in the session.
I am adding 2 labeled screenshots to this post to make you see what is going wrong.
The bounce of this session is here:
https://soundcloud.com/werner-linden/wirirano01test.
Now I had hoped when changing from "grid" mode to "slip", or "shuffle", I could grab those time markers and move them to the correct position, but then they are gone. Would I have to try to enter the speed line and try to change the speed the detective has found?

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  #2  
Old 01-04-2018, 03:57 PM
amagras amagras is online now
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Default Re: Absolute beginners, Beat Detective

You need to learn how to use bd, there are plenty of good lessons on YouTube.
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  #3  
Old 01-04-2018, 04:00 PM
albee1952 albee1952 is offline
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Default Re: Absolute beginners, Beat Detective

I'm certainly not the last word on this, but I think you are going at this wrong, or at least with the wrong tool for the job. Beat Detective is great for taking a loose performance and making it tight(like to a click track), but its not something I would use to do a tempo change. Next; do you really want/need to change tempo, or is what you should do is create a "tempo map" of what you have so that you can get a click track that rolls WITH the ebb and flow of what you have? If this sounds more like the right approach, search youtube for videos on how to "create a tempo map in pro tools"(without the quotes). It uses Identify Beat and (when done correctly) allows you to have a click track follow the audio you have(instead of trying to change the audio to match a click).

Another possible solution is to try using elastic audio and slip transients to line up with the grid(assuming you can find a tempo that is close, and the "live" tempo doesn't stray over a wide range). In a worst case, you might be best off leaving the original timing as is and play to it

Last 2 cents, it MIGHT be possible to play new parts, use Beat Detective to extract the groove from the original recording and make your new tracks follow that groove, but its not something a beginner is likely to be successful at(I've been trying to get a handle on Beat Detective for years and still don't feel confident on it at all)
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Old 01-05-2018, 12:36 AM
Wire57 Wire57 is offline
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Default Re: Absolute beginners, Beat Detective

Quote:
Originally Posted by amagras View Post
You need to learn how to use bd, there are plenty of good lessons on YouTube.
Thanks, yes I have seen quite some of those, but all who made those clips seem to have a MAC while I am working with a PC, so quite some thinge are different in handling. (At least I learned that MC's "command" is equal to PC's "Control"...)
The other thing is, that the points I wish to see are done so fast I have to replay them over and over again and I still do not get the clue. For them it was an easy step, but I am still riddeling how they got there.
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Old 01-05-2018, 12:58 AM
Wire57 Wire57 is offline
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Default Re: Absolute beginners, Beat Detective

Quote:
Originally Posted by albee1952 View Post
I'm certainly not the last word on this, but I think you are going at this wrong, or at least with the wrong tool for the job. Beat Detective is great for taking a loose performance and making it tight (like to a click track), but its not something I would use to do a tempo change. Next; do you really want/need to change tempo, or is what you should do is create a "tempo map" of what you have so that you can get a click track that rolls WITH the ebb and flow of what you have? If this sounds more like the right approach, search youtube for videos on how to "create a tempo map in pro tools" (without the quotes). It uses Identify Beat and (when done correctly) allows you to have a click track follow the audio you have (instead of trying to change the audio to match a click).
The "identify beat" tool is always being explained in YT with using a loop of one or two measures, would that work for a complete audio trak of, say, 100 measures as well?
Ok, I watched this YT clip: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0xlBU1HS3A, and Jason de Wilde is telling us we have to do this method with the entire track, not only for one or two selected measures, if we are working with a live recorded track.
Quote:
Originally Posted by albee1952 View Post
Another possible solution is to try using elastic audio and slip transients to line up with the grid (assuming you can find a tempo that is close, and the "live" tempo doesn't stray over a wide range). In a worst case, you might be best off leaving the original timing as is and play to it
Another fine idea, well from the feeling the guy did not do extreme tempo changes, he is keeping the beat quite steady, however, BD sometimes would show me extreme tempo changes, and at every of those points my drum "went wild" (This example is the one I was referring to in my initial post.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by albee1952 View Post
Last 2 cents, it MIGHT be possible to play new parts, use Beat Detective to extract the groove from the original recording and make your new tracks follow that groove, but its not something a beginner is likely to be successful at (I've been trying to get a handle on Beat Detective for years and still don't feel confident on it at all)
Meanwhile I had done 1 more experiment with importing the tune to Melodyne (editor) and see what the tempo editor says there. It was far closer to my feeling when listening to the track. And also there, I could go and try manual slipping the "blobs" (which I believe to be equivalents to the transients in PT), maybe I will try on with recording that "adapted" audio again and continue using this one.
As for the mess I created in my first PT session of this song, all of a sudden all the notes of my additional drum (BFD) were completely out of time. No way to fis that again, except for manually slipping each note to the place it should be. Must have to do with my erroneous manual tempo changes in the tempo ruler after applying the BD. Absolutely my fault.
But thankx for you advices, I will try them out.
Maybe we can invite some "crack" concerning BD in this thread? Not that I was saying your help wasn't appreciated. At least on behalf of other newbies who might face a similar issue? (I am one of those former "Sonarites" after Gibsons killing of Cakewalk.)
Quite another thing might be, I asked the guy to record anew, but add a bongo player who will beat his drum only at the first note of each measure.
I might have that new audio by next week, and meanwhile try to "repair" that drum track. He had liked it so much, it would be a pity.

Last edited by Wire57; 01-05-2018 at 11:26 AM.
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  #6  
Old 01-05-2018, 02:20 PM
albee1952 albee1952 is offline
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Default Re: Absolute beginners, Beat Detective

Re Identify Beat and "tempo mapping", yes it works great for entire songs. Re Melodyne, that was going to be my next suggestion to demo the new Melodyne(if you don't have it) and see if it can smooth out the tempo for you. I have used it before and the result was pretty remarkable
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Old 01-05-2018, 03:55 PM
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64GTOBOY 64GTOBOY is offline
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Default Re: Absolute beginners, Beat Detective

Man, tempo mapping and BD take up a whole chapter in the manual . The beat markers can be moved , I'm not at my system right now so I cant tell you for sure how. I think you've got a complex enough tempo that you're going to have to crack open the manual and follow the instructions for creating a groove template, and then swing over to the instructions for using the identify and edit beat commands.
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  #8  
Old 01-06-2018, 09:18 AM
Wire57 Wire57 is offline
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Default Re: Absolute beginners, Beat Detective / tempo map / backups

Ok, Of course I'll check the manual. It's just that it is hard to find something special in a manual of more than 1,000 pages , and there is indeed a language barrier in that I could set up PT in my native language, but the manual is in English.
Yesterday, I had been trying to find how I could make disappear a notice that an audio track I previously had used wasn't available and could not be linked to the session. I gave up finally. I just did not get what they are saying to this. Just as an example.
Back to this topic. I believe I am clear about the BD, and the tempo mapping, having seen some tutorials in YT. (I can only recommend to check the topics there first, because usually you can watch how the tutor does his things and miracles.
I said in the end of my last post in this thread, that I had to "save" my old drum track which I had messed up concerning timing. It was very easy.
Now this is for other newbies:
Protools saves, similar to Sibelius, with each time you save your session / project, the last version in a backup folder.
With Sibelius, is it even the same data format ".sib", just another folder than the actual scores.
With ProTools, it is not only a special backup folder, but the data format runs like ".bak.000.ptx". See the screenshot. Now similar to Sibelius, you can just doubleclick on the .bak file you think it contains the version you need (I recommend the date of change is being displayed in the file explorer), and ProTools will be launched and that version will be opened.
As in my case, I just exported the MIDI data of my drum, giving it a name that I am sure to recall in the next 100 years, and them I am ready to import that .mid in the session I wish to restore.
If there's anyone who knows an easier way to do this, please reply here. For the other newbies.
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  #9  
Old 01-06-2018, 04:14 PM
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64GTOBOY 64GTOBOY is offline
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Default Re: Absolute beginners, Beat Detective

There are several ways actually. One of PT strengths is multiple ways to do things. Which is great for power users(which im not) but does increase the learning curve.
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