HDN or HDX for VI/MIDI work?

[Will Russell]

Yup, the never ending question. I have a client with an upgraded 12 core 5,1 Mac Pro currently running proTools 10 with TDM hardware. He needs to move forward to a system that can run Mac OS Sierra and Pro Tools 12.6.

He primarily composes and records film soundtrack music. His compositions always include many tracks of the virtual instruments as well as actual audio tracks. A common workflow for him is that he does lots of the initial composition work with virtual instruments, Then needs to record real instruments into that fully evolved mix.

I know the computer can handle this task. The big question in his mind is regarding latency when recording real instruments into a complex CPU intensive mix of virtual instruments. On his TDM rig this was never an issue.

For those of you who actually have experience with this type of work, I'm very interested in your feedback and advice on how I might guide him to the proper upgrade. Obviously, HDX is the same workflow as TDM but HD Native is the most cost-effective path, and I imagine that together with track freeze he could probably work around any latency issues. But please chime in with your experiences!

I truly appreciate any opinions or advice from people who actually are doing this type of work with these systems.

[Tim R.]

In general, IMO, HDX is only necessary if you are doing large tracking sessions requiring more than 32 ch. of I/O and multiple low latency cue mixes. I don't know of ANY VIs (though there may be SOME) that run on HDX DSP so there is no advantage there. AND with the integration of Freeze/commit the need for DSP in mixing is becoming less and less. Just my .02

[albee1952]

Expounding on Tim R's comments; since most(all?) VI plugins are not DSP based, I doubt HDX gives any advantage. Running 2 rooms here. HDN in the main room and Mbox Pro in the midi room. Both rigs are custom-built 6 core i7 PC's with tons of VI's(Kontact, Arturia, Omnisphere, Keyscape, etc). Neither rig has trouble with several(although KeyScape is probably the biggest cpu hog). If we can ever get 12 to run smoothly, it will be a great day(track freeze and track commit are awesome)

BTW, my 2 systems are essentially identical except that the midi room has 32GB of RAM and I have 64 GB in the main room. I honestly can't say I "feel" the extra 32GB

[propower]

AVID Thunderbolt box $999
HDX $2999
(Granted if you need the Sonett chassis add $899)

Delta is $2K without chassis (and even better deals out there if you want). Why would you change your workflow at all. Recording live audio into complex mixes with guaranteed low latency is what HDX does. It will change the minimum buffer to 64/128 (44.1/96k) you can do on VI tracks though.

[Will Russell]

Originally Posted by propower

AVID Thunderbolt box $999
HDX $2999
(Granted if you need the Sonett chassis add $899)

Delta is $3K. Why would you change your workflow at all. Recording live audio into complex mixes with guaranteed low latency is what HDX does. It will change the minimum buffer to 64/128 (44.1/96k) you can do on VI tracks though.

Hi,


It seems that we are learning that HDN might not require much of a workflow change in actual practice. And it's $2000 cheaper!

Looking forward to hearing from other folks who have practical experience doing this kind of work on these particular rigs!

[albee1952]

Don't forget to add in the cost of upgrading the HD software. The hardware prices listed are just the hardware

[Stereo Missile]

I do similar film composition and tracking work on an HDX system, works great! Especially with track freeze for CPU hogging VI's it works really well. Advantage of an HDX system might be if he is for example delivering music mixes in 5.1, which can dramatically increase your track / bus count. I don't have personal experience with HDN so I can't comment as to how well it would work for this, but HDX is great for high track counts and then overdubbing with VI's etc.

[Will Russell]

Hi,

Thanks to everyone who replied! HD Native card ordered and due Monday!

[Bushpig]

Hi Will,

Just spotted this thread a bit late, but never mind. I'm also at this junction having an internal (and some external) debate about the right way to go re: HD Native vs HDX.

As you'll see from my signature, I'm still on PTHD 10.3.10 and TDM hardware. I mostly compose these days (lot's of VI's, or at least as many as I can get PT10 to run without crashing from lack of memory, here's looking at you 32 bit!?!). I run Reason as a sound source outrigger. Haven't got into Vienna Ensemble yet, but keep hearing good things about it. My background was traditional engineering, so I still look at these upgrades from that point of view as well (23 tracks in record with the whole band crashing away, whilst generating 6 cue mixes etc). Being able to throw yet ONE MORE overdub into an already busy nearly final mix and with the deadline approaching, without latency issues, is also a primary concern for me too.

>>>> Obviously, HDX is the same workflow as TDM <<<<

Just wanted to check if you'd be so kind as to ask your man if he's a "Mute Frees Assigned Voices" (the voice stealing workflow) kind of guy? This is the big sticking point that's been frustrating me when considering moving on from PT10/TDM.

An explanation if you don't know what I mean by this. I like to assign a bunch of tracks (16 or something) ready for say, a Vocal, to the same voice number (ie: all to A17). Then I number them from "South to North" 1-16. Now I start recording on the lowest track of the bunch and work my way up the screen. Each new track above that's in record or input enabled (little green button), takes over the "voice" from any below, and when not recording I can rough hack away at the clips and mute various pieces. This gives me a basic "stairstep" working edit that means anything higher up the screen takes over from stuff below, but I'm still only using one voice of my allocation, and I don't have 16 tracks all playing back at the same time (like I'm forced to do when I work with an instrument I'm Elastic Audio-ing. Drives me nuts).

I keep trying with playlists to emulate this workflow, but it just isn't the same. A while back Dave Tremblay said something on one of the threads around here to the effect "We realise that the voice stealing workflow is very important to some people, and we have some exciting plans in the pipeline for those who work this way". Then he left the building (still looking for this direct quote as we speak), and Playlists have never achieved what I hoped they would. It's possible to solo an individual playlist within the group for auditioning, but only that whole pass itself. There's no "taking over" if a part of the playlist lane is sliced and muted as described with the method above.

If you get a chance to ask your fella and he says no or looks at you blankly, fair enough, but just thought I should flag up this issue in case he's shocked when he discovers it's gone.

And also, if you get a minute at some point, come back and let us know how you both get on with setting up and running the new system. Very keen to hear some real world stories of a current work in progress migration of a TDM -> HD(-ish) setup.

Regards.

Steve Bush

PS: I also just remembered there's that long standing issue of side-chained signals not being properly delay compensated when using HD Native. Apparently the only system that handles this properly is HDX. You're fella may not use side-chaining, but if he does, this could also be another unexpected shocker.

[arche3]

On hdx pt12.6.1. Moved recently from 10hdtdm. I'll
Needed my VI stuff to work better so needed newer Mac os. I am really glad I did this. Track freeze is awesome. VePro 6 even track freezes the multi outs for any instruments. Very slick implementation. Pt 12.6.1 hdx and VePro 6 is awesome for composers.

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