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  #1  
Old 11-02-2011, 11:32 AM
qr2r qr2r is offline
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Default CALM Acts Audio Loudness, Average Loudness, Program Loudness levels... help needed

Can someone please explain the difference between Audio Loudness, Average Loudness and Program Loudness levels (in lay-persons terms), and tips to correct a rejected mix due to the CALM act's / broadcast parameters.

Here is the rejection feedback from my mix.

Audio Loudness level = -17.27 (-22/-24 allowed)
Average Loudness level = -25.26 (-22/-24 allowed)
Program Loudness = -22.68 (Less than -23 allowed)


My mix seems to be 5db too loud for "Audio Loudness", low on "Average Loudness", and close but over for "Program Loudness". I picked up a LKFS metering plugin (waves has one coming out in a month) and thought it would give me the metering I needed.

I had an L3 Multi-band Limiter on the output set to -10 as I always have. (Should it have been set to -24... but that would give me levels much too low.)

If someone can tell me the difference between the 3 levels loudness levels, could offer any help to sort this out, or tips / ways to correct my dilemma, it will be greatly appreciated.
Thanks
Questar
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  #2  
Old 11-02-2011, 07:18 PM
Postman Postman is offline
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Default Re: CALM Acts Audio Loudness, Average Loudness, Program Loudness levels... help neede

Quote:
Audio Loudness level = -17.27 (-22/-24 allowed)
Average Loudness level = -25.26 (-22/-24 allowed)
Program Loudness = -22.68 (Less than -23 allowed)
What you've posted does not make a lot of sense, which probably explains why you haven't gotten replies. I have no way to know what those terms written by the QC person actually mean. To me, they could all mean the same thing! I could take wild guesses about alternate meanings but that would be pointless. You need to ask specific questions about what each term is supposed to mean.

You must have had access to a specification from the network (or whomever) you have mixed for. Does the specification contain those terms? If it does, there must be some other information to help define what the terms actually mean. I fear this may be an instance of a misguided QC person writing nonsense, for reasons unknown.

One thing you can do to help us give a better answer to you is to quote the specification you are delivering for. Don't paraphrase it, copy it. If what you quote does not contain those terms, the QC person needs to explain what they mean. Otherwise, there can be no meaningful resolution to the problems that may or may not exist.

You're in my city. Feel free to call if you wish, I'll be glad to lend an opinion in person.
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  #3  
Old 11-02-2011, 07:26 PM
lexaudio lexaudio is offline
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Default Re: CALM Acts Audio Loudness, Average Loudness, Program Loudness levels... help neede

Quote:
Originally Posted by qr2r View Post
Can someone please explain the difference between Audio Loudness, Average Loudness and Program Loudness levels (in lay-persons terms), and tips to correct a rejected mix due to the CALM act's / broadcast parameters.

Here is the rejection feedback from my mix.

Audio Loudness level = -17.27 (-22/-24 allowed)
Average Loudness level = -25.26 (-22/-24 allowed)
Program Loudness = -22.68 (Less than -23 allowed)


My mix seems to be 5db too loud for "Audio Loudness", low on "Average Loudness", and close but over for "Program Loudness". I picked up a LKFS metering plugin (waves has one coming out in a month) and thought it would give me the metering I needed.

I had an L3 Multi-band Limiter on the output set to -10 as I always have. (Should it have been set to -24... but that would give me levels much too low.)

If someone can tell me the difference between the 3 levels loudness levels, could offer any help to sort this out, or tips / ways to correct my dilemma, it will be greatly appreciated.
Thanks
Questar
LKFS levels not meter levels. The Dolby media suite does this.

-24 LKFS +/- 2.

Read up on LKFS and LKFS metering. That should tell you what you need to know.

Its a pain I know. Rather than have the commercials bring the levels down, we have to smash our mixes.
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  #4  
Old 11-08-2011, 09:29 AM
qr2r qr2r is offline
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Default Re: CALM Acts Audio Loudness, Average Loudness, Program Loudness levels... help neede

Thanks ... So after speaking to the QC people giving out the specs here is what they are telling me...

Audio Loudness level = -17.27 (-22/-24 allowed) = TRUE PEAK
Average Loudness level = -25.26 (-22/-24 allowed) = SHORT TERM
Program Loudness = -22.68 (Less than -23 allowed) = INTEGRATED

So I contacted EBU society and they confirmed this was incorrect. the peak was -1TPDB. So now my question is why do we have to deal with ounces and milligrams while at the grocery store??? In other words... How does -1TPDB relate to LU's vs LKFS vs DBFS.

Simpler question.... What can my true peak hit in LU since my target is -23 LU, Program loudness is -23LU and Short term is -23 LU? -1 Milligrams???

I know there is a simple answer but my mind is over-saturated from reading the EBU tech guidelines.
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  #5  
Old 11-08-2011, 10:22 AM
Postman Postman is offline
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Default Re: CALM Acts Audio Loudness, Average Loudness, Program Loudness levels... help neede

Hey, it was nice to speak with you today! As followup for the online world:
Quote:
Audio Loudness level = -17.27 (-22/-24 allowed) = TRUE PEAK
There is something very wrong with this report. It cannot possibly be a true peak measurement! I cannot guess what the QC house is actually measuring but I'll venture to state they are making a mistake.

Requiring true peak levels to not exceed -1, which is what the EBU rep said, is much more likely. "-1tpdb" is another way to say "-1dbfs as measured with a true peak meter" (instead of an instantaneous digital peak meter). Digital peak meters like those in PT, show the digital sample values. True peak meters show the actual signal levels. (Under some circumstances, the actual signal levels can above or below the value of the digital samples that create them.)

Quote:
What can my true peak hit in LU since my target is -23 LU, Program loudness is -23LU and Short term is -23 LU? -1 Milligrams???
Milligrams!
Your question cannot be answered. True peak and LU are entirely different measurements and cannot be directly compared. True peak levels are measured at instantaneous moments in time. LU measurements are sort of "averaged" over time much like a VU meter does.

True peak levels for a -23LUFS program could range anywhwere from -20 (which would be rare and probably sound horrible, and may only be possible with test tones) all the way up to 0 dbfs. A program with true peak at -17.27 and with loudness at -22.68 LUFS, as yours was reported to be by the QC house, would be extremely compressed and limited, something like VO barely audible over a track of limited pink noise! This report makes no sense to me!

Good luck sorting it out!
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  #6  
Old 11-08-2011, 11:05 AM
soundworx soundworx is offline
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Default Re: CALM Acts Audio Loudness, Average Loudness, Program Loudness levels... help neede

Remix with NuGen, Dolby Media Meter V2 or the Flux plugins. They'll give you all the readings you need. Your limiter will probably be at -1dbfs for surround and in some cases -10 dbfs for the downmix.

There's also this:

http://www.grimmaudio.com/pro_software_levelone.htm
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  #7  
Old 11-08-2011, 01:37 PM
lylesdonald lylesdonald is offline
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Default Re: CALM Acts Audio Loudness, Average Loudness, Program Loudness levels... help neede

QC...It just keeps getting better and better. Good luck qr2r.
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  #8  
Old 11-08-2011, 03:48 PM
Postman Postman is offline
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Default Re: CALM Acts Audio Loudness, Average Loudness, Program Loudness levels... help neede

soundworx,
I haven't heard of this one. Do you have it? Is there a realtime version or is it audiosuite only?
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  #9  
Old 11-08-2011, 06:17 PM
qr2r qr2r is offline
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Default Re: CALM Acts Audio Loudness, Average Loudness, Program Loudness levels... help neede

Thanks all!
Great talking with you also Postman! and... Thanks for the tip Soundworx. I did use the NUGEN Audio VisLM-H metering plugin along with the LM-C. Great software and Jon at Nugen was very helpful.

As for my internet follow-up... you're correct Postman... the -15 crush of brick wall limiting to try to achive an average close to -23 was insane. I am having email correspondences with Frans de Jong the Senior Engineer involved with EBU TECHNICAL, Jon at Nugen Audio as well and Eelco Grimm who is part of the Dutch Broadcasting Loudness Committee and member of the EBU P/LOUD committee. All were as concerned as Postman and I that the specs given were just plain WRONG. The EBU gang concurred -1DBTP is the EBU standard. SO ... back to the mixing board to mix a ebu-r128 mix with the help of all of you and the NUGEN Vis-LM metering! I'll be back to post once I get the feedback (hopefully not rejection) from the Netherlands! Stay tuned.
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  #10  
Old 11-09-2011, 05:50 AM
cananball cananball is offline
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Default Re: CALM Acts Audio Loudness, Average Loudness, Program Loudness levels... help neede

The OP mentions CALM and LKFS, so why does he keep asking the EBU for advice? Shouldn't he be speaking to ATSC?
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