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  #11  
Old 02-10-2012, 01:28 AM
tamasdragon tamasdragon is offline
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Default Re: Director/Producer asks for session and media

I'm with Henchman on this one. Just finished reading a few sound libraries copyright notices and one thing is really strictly prohibited: give away, redistribute or copy the original to another person. Period, end of discussion, you cannot do this, even not for money.
The other reasons are true, but this one alone is a big NO.
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  #12  
Old 02-10-2012, 03:57 AM
SD2 SD2 is offline
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Default Re: Director/Producer asks for session and media

I never had to do that in almost 15 years in the business but this year, I (almost) had to do it twice...

In both cases, the idea was mainly to get my life back and get rid of the client!...

In one case (an indie movie), the director was a psychopath obsessed with the idea that his work could be lost... So eventhough I told him that, like always, a backup was included in my fee (stems+mixes+whole sessions), he insisted on copying my sessions onto his harddrive.
In this particular case, it was really useless since I had finalized the mix in a studio equiped with a Neve, which means that most automations weren't even within the PT session...
After explaining that he wouldn't do much with the session alone and that I generally didn't do that (except with extra charge), I gave up because that project had already taken wayyyy too much of my time (and the production was more than broke...).

In the other case, a documentary, after editing (sound) and mixing a 52' version, I was told that a long (60') version also had to be made!... This had never been discussed before and this was surely NOT included in the global price I gave. I had to refuse to do it because I didn't have much time left and also, honnestly, because I was tired of this project (a real mess with amateur producers and incompetent/untalented director).
Now, I couldn't just deliver the stems and let them deal with the long version, that would have been mean (tempting but mean...), specially when they were offering to pay (poorly) for the extra work.
I was about to deliver the PT session but, after explaining it would be useless without the plugs blahblahblah, I never heard from them again...

I might be wrong but I feel that, with the global economic crisis, this kind of situations could become more and more usual. :-(

Quote:
Originally Posted by tamasdragon View Post
Just finished reading a few sound libraries copyright notices and one thing is really strictly prohibited: give away, redistribute or copy the original to another person. Period, end of discussion, you cannot do this, even not for money.
I agree, this is a usefull and a quite true explanation but I'm not sure it will stand in the real life. If a producer asks for the sessions and, when advised about the copyright thing, says "it won't be re-used, it's just for backup", not sure that will stand... And, for every movie I've worked on as a mixer, I know for sure that the whole project (including FX/Amb...) was systematically backed up on a drive provided by the production.
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  #13  
Old 02-10-2012, 04:55 AM
Alexander K Alexander K is offline
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Default Re: Director/Producer asks for session and media

Hello everyone and thank you for your statements. Any further experiences are welcome.

At this point i have to clarify some things. The movie is already released, so they don't want the session for further editing. And of course i agree with everyone of you, i don't give my session away which contains all my edit and mix techniques. However, i like the idea not to reject requests like this in generell but rather set a price to this service. A high one!
Meanwhile the producer said, they wanted the session for archiving which i can understand. And because this wasn't listed in the contract, so i will charge them for this.

Ok let's talk about sFX. I thought of the typical workflow for a freelance sound crew. A client asks one editor for creating the sound edit and asks another freelance sound engineer for doing the mix. The sound crew maybe consists of several people. And this is common practice here in Europe, but i think also in the USA. But these individual sound editors and mixers may not all have the same sound libraries. I think this is impossible. And they share projects (AAF/OMF) and so they share sFX. But with a defined purpose: Use of the sound samples in the movie.
So how does this work if the licence actualy says not to go this way?
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  #14  
Old 02-10-2012, 05:23 AM
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mgoorevich mgoorevich is offline
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Default Re: Director/Producer asks for session and media

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexander K View Post
Ok let's talk about sFX. I thought of the typical workflow for a freelance sound crew. A client asks one editor for creating the sound edit and asks another freelance sound engineer for doing the mix. The sound crew maybe consists of several people. And this is common practice here in Europe, but i think also in the USA. But these individual sound editors and mixers may not all have the same sound libraries. I think this is impossible. And they share projects (AAF/OMF) and so they share sFX. But with a defined purpose: Use of the sound samples in the movie.
So how does this work if the licence actualy says not to go this way?
With bought sfx its simple:
You have the right to synchronize your purchases (royalty free music, sound effects & production elements) with audio and/or visual productions or applications.
So unless it used in your project with your purchased effects everything is fine. You cannot pass however your project with your effects to someone else.
The mix stage is an exception because your effects will be used with your project. Guaranteed. This is a normal workflow , and everybody understands it.


But there is another aspect. My treasure is not SI or HE effects, which almost everybody owns. My treasure is actually sound effects, BG's and Folies which I recorded myself during my 15 years career. They are unique and this is what makes me "special".


So despite of my solely ownership over these effects, I'd never provide a session for that reason: This is my life and it took me 15 years to compile my sound fx bank. They are more expensive to me of any hardware/software in the studio. A client should realize that he will not receive a console or computer as well as other component involved in the mix including sound effects.
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  #15  
Old 02-10-2012, 06:07 AM
SD2 SD2 is offline
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Default Re: Director/Producer asks for session and media

I completely get your point Michael but I'm surprised that the productions (I'm speaking movie, not TV) you've been working with have never asked for the sessions (backup purpose).
Here in France, here's how it works and why it's tricky.
A sound editor works on the dialogues, another sound editor/designer works on the FX/Amb/music editing. In both cases, most of the time, the PT stations used for these tasks are rented by the production.
Then, dialogues and FXs are sent to the mix stage (along with the stations or on harddrive). Most of the time, all the FXs/Amb (+ some of the foleys) remain on the rented PT and the dialogues+some foleys+music go to the mixer's own PT station OR they remain on the second rented PT OR they go on the studio's own PT.

Why am I explaining all this? Because, when the mix is over, someone has to back the whole thing up.
Most studios can do this but I think producers and directors don't really like the idea that a studio keeps all of their audio elements (piracy and all)...
And the production wants it all in one place. They won't let the sound editor backup the FXs, the mixer backup the dialogues and the musician backup the music!... That would be way too complicated and risky.
So, as I said before, most of the time, they provide a harddrive for the whole project to be backed up and keep it to themselves.

It's totally normal that you wish to protect years of hard work or wish to respect copyright for commercial soundbanks, but, at some point, I'm afraid you have to let go...
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  #16  
Old 02-10-2012, 08:06 AM
cananball cananball is offline
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Default Re: Director/Producer asks for session and media

After naming a price for your raw sessions, offer to give them a Pro Tools session file containing printed stems and final mix. No problems with plugins, sfx are locked in the fx stem and your edit/mix secrets are safe.
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  #17  
Old 02-10-2012, 08:18 AM
georgia georgia is offline
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Default Re: Director/Producer asks for session and media

when we do sound design, we create Foley, we record ambience and sfx live out in the field and in the studio, and we use SFX libraries...

the problem that most clients don't understand is they have to have
1. The same DAW system with comparable IO you used.
2. all the plugins and 3rd party SW you used.
3. and all the media you used. ( some yours, some theirs, some 3rd party)

If they paid you to create some stuff, an argument could be made that these sounds belong to the client, just as much as the material delivered by the client, with the exception of licensed material you provided per that set of 3rd party licenses.

You can sell them the session at a HIGH cost without ANY licensed materials, stating in a document that these items were removed due to licensing constraints and that you cannot legally transfer these materials.... Leaving most of the session in tack and still "usable" with the remaining materials and stems....

Or

add in the cost of a purchase of the SFX libraries, and other licensed software, sounds, music, etc that you used so you can purchase a copy from the vendor and, hand the client those libraries as well.

Or

You could print the SFX track and deliver as an independent stem, along with Ambience separate, music separate, and Dialogue separate.... charge them a little more not bother with the SESSION sale issues.


Like I said, I'll sell my sessions, but the cost will be high. ...very high.

cheers
geo
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