Finishing set-up: 5.1 / LFE question...

[bchrismar]

Posted this over at GS but probably should have just come here first... any help greatly appreciated!

TL;DNR - I've installed all speakers, ran SoundID and have equal SPL from listening position the same for all speakers including my LFE. How do I account for the +10 LFE issue for my playback and deliveries?

Full life story:
Monitors: 1032A L/R/C - 1020A LS/RS - Kali Audio Sub
Interface: Focusrite Clarett +8
Mac M1 - PT Ultimate 2023
Bass management: none - Crossover on sub set at 100 hz for LFE only


Playback sounds good in the room. I've run Sonarworks SoundID to create a room profile (plug-in version) which is working nicely.

After creating the profile, I did an SPL check from my listening position and everything was very close, I did bump my rears a bit to match output level from mains. Same with LFE. So, all 6 of my speakers currently push the same SPL level to the listening position equally.

Questions:

1. At what stage do I make the adjustment for the +10 LFE and how? (Calibrate sub +10 higher for playback?)

2. I understand that pink noise isn't ideal for sub (LFE) calibration. But it's all I have right now and I do need to be in the ballpark to check some files I'm being sent. But for the future, what too should I acquire to calibrate my sub - considering the above questions as well. (+10 bump at playback sites, etc.)

3. For those who use SoundID plug-in, did you calibrate your speakers before you profiled your room? If not, would that then render the profile useless if you make minor volume tweaks to speaker levels after?

I feel like I'm almost there, I'm hung up on this +10 LFE issue and am hoping to demystify the concept...

Thanks all!

[Greg Malcangi]

Originally Posted by bchrismar

How do I account for the +10 LFE issue for my playback and deliveries?
Bass management: none - Crossover on sub set at 100 hz for LFE only

Bchrismar,

The room calibration “sticky” should answer all your questions, the 2nd post contains a link specifically about LFE calibration. In short, you really need a measurement mic, which can be had for $100 or so, a RTA (real time analyser) software such as REW, which is free and pink noise audio files, which can be downloaded from the links in the 1st post of the “Sticky”. You then measure the “in-band” (22Hz - 120Hz) level of your main speakers and of your sub, adjusting your sub until the measurement reads 10dB higher.

However, this won’t work in your case because your main speakers are not full range, the 1032a’s start rolling-off at around 45Hz, roughly an octave above the lower limit of the “in-band” range. Which brings me to the 2nd sentence I’ve quoted:

You say you’ve got no bass management but then that you’ve set the crossover to 100Hz, which is the bass management crossover? If your bass management is off, then you don’t have a crossover. In your case you should have the bass management on, to compensate for your 1032a’s lack of low frequency response, although probably with a 80Hz or 60Hz crossover.

You should do your LFE level calibration after everything else: EQ correction/SoundID application and bass management. Lastly, there is a “dirty” way of doing the LFE level calibration, if you don’t want to get a measurement mic/RTA software which just uses your SPL meter: Just set your LFE level 5-6dB higher than your mains. So if your main speaker level (with bass management!) is say 78dBSPL, your LFE level would be about 84dBSPL. However, this is a very “ball-park” method and could be out by several dB, the “in-band” RTA method is the right way to do it.

G

[JFreak]

LFE crossover at 100Hz is not bass management (and should ideally be 120Hz). Once the OP has more money to spend I would recommend buying a suitable sized Genelec sub which actually has bass management, and in that case 45Hz is a non-issue.

[bchrismar]

Originally Posted by JFreak

LFE crossover at 100Hz is not bass management (and should ideally be 120Hz). Once the OP has more money to spend I would recommend buying a suitable sized Genelec sub which actually has bass management, and in that case 45Hz is a non-issue.

Mine is set at 120, that was a typo. And correct, I stated that I had no bass management but my sub does have roll-off options. So perhaps I misstated.

Thanks I think lol

[bchrismar]

Originally Posted by Greg Malcangi

Bchrismar,

The room calibration “sticky” should answer all your questions, the 2nd post contains a link specifically about LFE calibration. In short, you really need a measurement mic, which can be had for $100 or so, a RTA (real time analyser) software such as REW, which is free and pink noise audio files, which can be downloaded from the links in the 1st post of the “Sticky”. You then measure the “in-band” (22Hz - 120Hz) level of your main speakers and of your sub, adjusting your sub until the measurement reads 10dB higher.

However, this won’t work in your case because your main speakers are not full range, the 1032a’s start rolling-off at around 45Hz, roughly an octave above the lower limit of the “in-band” range. Which brings me to the 2nd sentence I’ve quoted:

You say you’ve got no bass management but then that you’ve set the crossover to 100Hz, which is the bass management crossover? If your bass management is off, then you don’t have a crossover. In your case you should have the bass management on, to compensate for your 1032a’s lack of low frequency response, although probably with a 80Hz or 60Hz crossover.

You should do your LFE level calibration after everything else: EQ correction/SoundID application and bass management. Lastly, there is a “dirty” way of doing the LFE level calibration, if you don’t want to get a measurement mic/RTA software which just uses your SPL meter: Just set your LFE level 5-6dB higher than your mains. So if your main speaker level (with bass management!) is say 78dBSPL, your LFE level would be about 84dBSPL. However, this is a very “ball-park” method and could be out by several dB, the “in-band” RTA method is the right way to do it.

G

Thanks Greg! Big help. Doing this all myself from scratch (converting from stereo set-up) and ther are simply gaps in my grasp of some concepts. (I've been binging information for weeks) I'll check the sticky for sure... and I can pick up a RTA, stat.

As for my sub itself, I've posted the specs (manual) below - page 8 shows the back panel. (L/R in and L/R out)

Right now the only thing I send to the sub in my mixes is LFE. I'm not using the sub to extend low end frequencies in my playback environment. Am I doing this wrong? I'm used to mixing on these monitors in stereo and their size v. my room size always felt like good low end coverage.

Did I screw this part up? Sorry for the rudimentary question... as in my research, this is the results I ended up with.

Recap: L/R/C/LS/RS all full range and only LFE being sent to my sub with 120 rolloff switch on sub itself.

https://media.djmania.net/manuales/p...udio_WS-12.pdf

[smurfyou]

You're not doing anything wrong. Greg's point was that the 1032's aren't full-range so you could be missing low end when you're mixing. But that sub can't do bass management for 5.1 so you'd need another solution.

Also the +10dB boost should only be for LFE signal, not bass-managed signal so it can get sticky. And it's not a flat 10dB, it's in-band response as he described.

Step 1 would be to get an RTA (software is fine).
Step 2 decide if you need to bass manage (I would say yes).
Step 3 decide if you want to get a separate Genelec sub for that purpose. I'd agree with 60-80Hz for the 1032's.

Problem with doing the 1 sub is calibration - you don't want to gain the bass managed signal out of parity with your screen channels.

[smurfyou]

Also that Kali manual doesn't describe what the DIP switch setting for "LFE" actually does. Is it just a simple low-pass or does it apply gain in the amp? I'd ask them.

[bchrismar]

Originally Posted by smurfyou

You're not doing anything wrong. Greg's point was that the 1032's aren't full-range so you could be missing low end when you're mixing. But that sub can't do bass management for 5.1 so you'd need another solution.

Also the +10dB boost should only be for LFE signal, not bass-managed signal so it can get sticky. And it's not a flat 10dB, it's in-band response as he described.

Step 1 would be to get an RTA (software is fine).
Step 2 decide if you need to bass manage (I would say yes).
Step 3 decide if you want to get a separate Genelec sub for that purpose. I'd agree with 60-80Hz for the 1032's.

Problem with doing the 1 sub is calibration - you don't want to gain the bass managed signal out of parity with your screen channels.

Extremely helpful, thank you.

[bchrismar]

Originally Posted by smurfyou

Also that Kali manual doesn't describe what the DIP switch setting for "LFE" actually does. Is it just a simple low-pass or does it apply gain in the amp? I'd ask them.

Going to deep dive into this unit more tonight actually, good thinking. Thank you.

[bchrismar]

Originally Posted by Greg Malcangi

Bchrismar,

The room calibration “sticky” should answer all your questions, the 2nd post contains a link specifically about LFE calibration. In short, you really need a measurement mic, which can be had for $100 or so, a RTA (real time analyser) software such as REW, which is free and pink noise audio files, which can be downloaded from the links in the 1st post of the “Sticky”. You then measure the “in-band” (22Hz - 120Hz) level of your main speakers and of your sub, adjusting your sub until the measurement reads 10dB higher.
G

Hey Greg, managed to find a JBL RTA-1 and got through the mic calibration portion of setup in REW to realize I don't have a calibration file for the mic, and it doesn't seem to exist anywhere online. Any workaround for that you're aware of, or time to look for another mic?

(In the interim I used your other (dirty) methodology and mixes seem to be translating well)