snare mic bleed question.

[nerhal]

hello I have been recording for a long time and have been getting decent results on drums. I have a real good idea of how to mic the drums and get a huge punchy sound but one thing that kinda plaques me is the high hat and cymbals bleeding into my snare mic. I understand that its natural for it to happen and that I can use gate but I don't like using gating and am wondering what everybody else does here to get that snare without bleeding or drummagog etc. I use an audix i5 mic an sometimes a sm57 pointed down toward the edge of the snare or angled toward the center of the snare and positioned under the hh trying to face it away as much as possible from other sources.

I can prob also post a recent pic I took of a set I recorded for my band.

any input would be swell. :)

[albee1952]

Here's an idea for your consideration; insert Drumagog and add/replace your snare with.......your snare. Okay, in case you're thinking, what did he smoke, make some samples of your snare(assuming you like the sound, and it seems that you do). Record some single shots and edit them and export to some handy folder and use your own samples in Drumagog(or most any drum replacer plugin. By blending the original with your new sample, you can totally control the amount of bleed of cymbals and hat, from full bleed(like you already have) to no bleed at all(blend set to 100%). I made several samples of a few kits and use them this way. It can work very well once you get the trigger levels(threshold) set correctly.

[BradLyons]

Many turn the pre-amp up WAY too far on the snare drum, therefore picking up material you just don't need. Snares are obviously loud, VERY loud---so who needs all of that gain? Recording drums is totally unique than instruments where you're trying to get the best gain before distortion.....well with drums, that's not what you have to do. IMHO snares need very little gain on the pre, because when you're using compression later your make-up gain really works with you. Lower the gain, it really makes a difference.

[barters81]

I too have this same question. I'm using the same mic setup as you also.

I'm only getting into problems with the snare bleed when I either push up the high end on the eq, or compress a lot, or both. What i've done recently is this:

- Take any eq or compression off of your original track
- duplicate snare track twice
- take one of these snare tracks and use the eq to find the 'pop' or attack of the snare. Strip everything else away using the eq. Push this snare track slightly infront of the recorded (initial) snare track
- Place a gate on the second duplicated snare track and side chain the track you've just eq'd to trigger the gate. Fiddle with the gate so its opening and closing at the right times for your taste. Mute the first duplicate as it is just running the gate and adding nothing to your mix.
- Eq and compress this second duplicate to taste, although go 25-40% further that usual
- Blend the original track with this second duplicate track to get a balance of originally recorded life and extreme pop of the duplicate.

The idea is that by using a dummy track to open the gate (after moving it slightly forward) the gate will work without effecting your initial attack. You're over compressing/eq'ing the second snare track and blending to make it jump out of the mix, whilst retaining any ghost noting and general life of the original.

I'm interested if anyone has any tricks on getting professionally clean tom sound also. I just can't seem to nail it. My toms are usually way too bottom heavy, or thin.

[barters81]

Originally Posted by BradLyons

Many turn the pre-amp up WAY too far on the snare drum, therefore picking up material you just don't need. Snares are obviously loud, VERY loud---so who needs all of that gain? Recording drums is totally unique than instruments where you're trying to get the best gain before distortion.....well with drums, that's not what you have to do. IMHO snares need very little gain on the pre, because when you're using compression later your make-up gain really works with you. Lower the gain, it really makes a difference.

Cool...I think I'm probably guilty of this. I'll definately be trying this as you're completely right.....there never seems to not be enough snare level. I'm guessing this holds true especially if you're recording in 24 bit.

[nerhal]

Originally Posted by albee1952

Here's an idea for your consideration; insert Drumagog and add/replace your snare with.......your snare. Okay, in case you're thinking, what did he smoke, make some samples of your snare(assuming you like the sound, and it seems that you do). Record some single shots and edit them and export to some handy folder and use your own samples in Drumagog(or most any drum replacer plugin. By blending the original with your new sample, you can totally control the amount of bleed of cymbals and hat, from full bleed(like you already have) to no bleed at all(blend set to 100%). I made several samples of a few kits and use them this way. It can work very well once you get the trigger levels(threshold) set correctly.

I am not against drummagog 100% and actually have done that with decent results but am really trying to get a great clean sound from the start before I tweak it with plugins if needed etc. but good idea either way

[nerhal]

Originally Posted by BradLyons

Many turn the pre-amp up WAY too far on the snare drum, therefore picking up material you just don't need. Snares are obviously loud, VERY loud---so who needs all of that gain? Recording drums is totally unique than instruments where you're trying to get the best gain before distortion.....well with drums, that's not what you have to do. IMHO snares need very little gain on the pre, because when you're using compression later your make-up gain really works with you. Lower the gain, it really makes a difference.

very true. I use a presonus studio channel with -20db set so it picks up the loud snare and keeps the background noise to a minimum but its not enough sometimes.

[nerhal]

Originally Posted by barters81

I too have this same question. I'm using the same mic setup as you also.

I'm only getting into problems with the snare bleed when I either push up the high end on the eq, or compress a lot, or both. What i've done recently is this:

- Take any eq or compression off of your original track
- duplicate snare track twice
- take one of these snare tracks and use the eq to find the 'pop' or attack of the snare. Strip everything else away using the eq. Push this snare track slightly infront of the recorded (initial) snare track
- Place a gate on the second duplicated snare track and side chain the track you've just eq'd to trigger the gate. Fiddle with the gate so its opening and closing at the right times for your taste. Mute the first duplicate as it is just running the gate and adding nothing to your mix.
- Eq and compress this second duplicate to taste, although go 25-40% further that usual
- Blend the original track with this second duplicate track to get a balance of originally recorded life and extreme pop of the duplicate.

The idea is that by using a dummy track to open the gate (after moving it slightly forward) the gate will work without effecting your initial attack. You're over compressing/eq'ing the second snare track and blending to make it jump out of the mix, whilst retaining any ghost noting and general life of the original.

I'm interested if anyone has any tricks on getting professionally clean tom sound also. I just can't seem to nail it. My toms are usually way too bottom heavy, or thin.

good idea. will try it out. as for toms I use audix tom mics which are loud and beefy and sound great. I run them into my octane -20db and gate them in pro tools. in fact they are the only thing I gate on drums, sometimes HH.

[barters81]

Originally Posted by nerhal

good idea. will try it out. as for toms I use audix tom mics which are loud and beefy and sound great. I run them into my octane -20db and gate them in pro tools. in fact they are the only thing I gate on drums, sometimes HH.

I'm using audix tom mics also, and am wondering if I've got my preamp too loud for these as well. I seem to have a problem with a crash cymbol which a drummer hits a split second after he'll hit the floor tom 90% percent of the time. Due trying to keep the resonance of the tom I get this awful sounding cymbol cuting through the mixing before the gate closes. Of course if I close the gate sooner, I loose the resonance of the tom. 6 one way, half a dozen the other I guess.

Good luck with it all.

[danander11]

I use a hybrid of Albees suggestion.. I make my own samples of each kit I record just before tracking, then manually edit them in.. takes a bit more time than using a replacer, but I always seem happier with the results.